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Political Parties and Elections Bill

Secondary information

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

710 c51-104GC 

Session

2008-09

Department

Ministry of Justice

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords Grand Committee

Related items

Political Parties and Elections Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 26-EN also published.
Tuesday, 3 March 2009
Bills
House of Lords

Deposited Paper DEP2009-1680
Friday, 12 June 2009
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Bach | 710 c81-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Henley, for raising this issue. It needs to be discussed and I...

Lord Henley | 710 c88GC (Link to this contribution) To spare the blushes of my noble friend Lord Norton, I remind my noble friend of the eminence of the...

Show all contributions (136)

Lord Bates | 710 c96GC (Link to this contribution) That was exactly the type of thing that the amendment was trying to draw out. I should be extremely ...

Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c104GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until tomorrow at noon.

Lord Tyler | 710 c76GC (Link to this contribution) I intend to follow the example of my noble friend and be exceedingly brief. In parenthesis, I should...

Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c76-7GC (Link to this contribution) In moving Amendment 11, I shall also speak to government Amendments 12 to14, 24 and 25. Paragraph 4 ...

Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c76GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 11 11: Schedule 1, page 26, line 22, leave out "disclosure" and insert "document-disclosu...

Lord Bach | 710 c72GC (Link to this contribution) Reasonable is a word that appears in almost every statute that I have had anything to do with or eve...

Lord Bach | 710 c72GC (Link to this contribution) Subject to later amendments is the time limit in Clause 5(1). The three months retention there prote...

Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 710 c70GC (Link to this contribution) But the Electoral Commission will determine a specific time. So it will not be one year or two years...

Lord Bach | 710 c63GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 3 3: Schedule 1, page 24, line 25, at end insert "has been at any time in the period of f...

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall | 710 c51GC (Link to this contribution) I remind the Committee that if there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committe...

Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c79GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps this is a convenient point to take a 10-minute break. Sitting suspended.

Lord Borrie | 710 c81GC (Link to this contribution) I have no doubt that the noble Lords, Lord Henley and Lord Bates, are right to raise this matter. In...

Lord Henley | 710 c83GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister and to the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, for his intervention. Obviously, I...

Lord Bach | 710 c84GC (Link to this contribution) As the Committee will be aware, the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee of this House r...

Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 710 c84-5GC (Link to this contribution) I had noticed the recommendation by the Delegated Powers Committee. Although I served on it for four...

Lord Bach | 710 c85GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord—it is very good to see him taking part in the proceedings. I will ta...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c87GC (Link to this contribution) I have a brief question for the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth. I followed his argument quite clos...

Lord Norton of Louth | 710 c87GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may explain. My proposed subsection (3) merely repeats what is in the 2000 Act. The amendm...

Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 710 c89GC (Link to this contribution) This important amendment about bringing focus is replicated elsewhere because the Government are kee...

Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 710 c88GC (Link to this contribution) My reaction to the amendment moved by my noble friend was exactly 180 degrees opposite the reaction ...

Lord Rennard | 710 c92-3GC (Link to this contribution) One overarching principle of this Bill, which we all very much welcome, is the increased flexibility...

Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c89-90GC (Link to this contribution) I thank noble Lords who participated in the debate. The points they made reached an esoteric level t...

Lord Bach | 710 c98-9GC (Link to this contribution) To some degree I was tempted to answer the points to be made on this group during what I had to say ...

Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 710 c95GC (Link to this contribution) This is a very innocent and ignorant question. I could not help noting stylistically that in Section...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c95GC (Link to this contribution) A party worker.

Lord Bach | 710 c95GC (Link to this contribution) A party worker; a volunteer worker of the kind that the noble Lord, Lord Bates, talked about earlier...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c93GC (Link to this contribution) When my noble friend replies to the debate, perhaps he will answer this question. What happens if th...

Lord Bach | 710 c93-5GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Bates, in moving these important amendments, has rightly elided the amendments ...

Lord Bates | 710 c101-2GC (Link to this contribution) Two themes have recurred in the discussions on the amendments on this first day in Committee: the fi...

Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c74-5GC (Link to this contribution) The government amendment is intended to address concerns raised in another place about paragraph 4 o...

Lord Haskel | 710 c75GC (Link to this contribution) I have to inform the Committee that if Amendment 9 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment 10, by reas...

Lord Bach | 710 c71GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate. These amendments would requir...

Lord Bates | 710 c72GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister makes a very sensible point and I do not dispute it. It is entirely appropriate to put ...

Lord Rennard | 710 c70GC (Link to this contribution) It seems to me that the Electoral Commission is simply saying that any fixed period, whether it is 2...

Lord Bates | 710 c69-70GC (Link to this contribution) He could say that. If someone is served with a disclosure notice and they are the person involved, w...

Lord Bates | 710 c70GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness is suggesting that the Electoral Commission has an answer to this in the sense of...

Lord Bates | 710 c68-9GC (Link to this contribution) I accept on one level that the arguments seem a little thin in terms of making this request for a re...

Lord Bates | 710 c66GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 5 5: Schedule 1, page 25, line 2, at end insert— "(3A) A person served with a disclosure ...

Lord Bates | 710 c64GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, for giving me a millisecond to think of an answer t...

Lord Bates | 710 c66GC (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister saying that serving the notice by hand is not an option that could be considered?

Lord Bates | 710 c63GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 4 4: Schedule 1, page 24, line 26, at end insert— "(2A) A disclosure notice must be serve...

Lord Bates | 710 c60GC (Link to this contribution) I hear that and I am grateful for this debate. It has aired some points and principles to which I am...

Lord Bates | 710 c58GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his reply, and also to other noble Lords who have spoken. On my fi...

Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 710 c54GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that the noble Baroness will forgive me for saying that I do not entirely follow her line of ...

Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 710 c53-4GC (Link to this contribution) I understand the points that the noble Lord, Lord Bates, has made but what I find difficult is the t...

Lord Bates | 710 c51GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 1: Compliance with controls imposed by the 2000 Act etc Amendment 1 1: Clause 1, page 1, li...

Lord Bates | 710 c51-2GC (Link to this contribution) As this is the first day of Committee, I place again on record my interest as an officer and deputy ...

Lord Rennard | 710 c78GC (Link to this contribution) "Information" is clearly the key word here. It is important that we support these amendments. It mus...

Lord Bach | 710 c78-9GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments 12 to 14 12: Schedule 1, page 26, line 40, leave out "disclosure" and insert "document-d...

Lord Henley | 710 c79GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 15 15: Schedule 1, page 27, line 6, leave out "three months" and insert "42 days from the...

Lord Henley | 710 c79-80GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 15 is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Bates. I shall speak also to Amendments ...

Lord Tyler | 710 c80-1GC (Link to this contribution) I do not have the information to which the noble Lord, Lord Henley, refers. I need further and bette...

Lord Bach | 710 c82-3GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord knows that in an investigation it is very important that the investigator should have...

Lord Henley | 710 c83GC (Link to this contribution) In that case, the parties would have time to make copies. The point that I was going to make in resp...

Lord Bach | 710 c84GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments 24 and 25 24: Schedule 1, page 30, line 26, after "4" insert "or 4A" 25: Schedule 1, p...

Lord Henley | 710 c84GC (Link to this contribution) Having been, along with my noble friend Lord Bates, a member of the Government who set up the forebe...

Lord Bach | 710 c84GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 3: Civil sanctions Amendment 26 26: Clause 3, page 3, line 8, leave out "or (4)" and insert...

Lord Henley | 710 c87-8GC (Link to this contribution) I shall give my noble friend a little time to think of his reply to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Sa...

Lord Tyler | 710 c86-7GC (Link to this contribution) I would like to comment briefly on the new clause proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth. ...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c89GC (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord not accept that the commission should at least have its views stated during the ...

Lord Bates | 710 c91-2GC (Link to this contribution) This group of amendments relates to the civil sanctions that are now available to the Electoral Comm...

Lord Norton of Louth | 710 c90-1GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to all those who have spoken. In the light of what has been said, I should begin ...

Lord Bach | 710 c100GC (Link to this contribution) In the end, it will be up to the commission to determine its own criteria, but they will have to be ...

Lord Bates | 710 c101GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 40 40: Schedule 2, page 32, line 13, at end insert "within 28 days of receipt of the noti...

Lord Bach | 710 c99-100GC (Link to this contribution) I promise that we will have that in mind, but a number of issues arise. One is that for a fixed mone...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c97GC (Link to this contribution) I express a margin of concern about this part of the Bill. I go back to the little old man with no m...

Lord Bach | 710 c96GC (Link to this contribution) I am writing a letter because of what my noble friend said in relation to those who are impoverished...

Lord Bates | 710 c95-6GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the Minister’s response to these amendments, which, as I said, are probing in natu...

Lord Bach | 710 c95GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord makes a fair point. When the statutory instruments are published, we hope that they w...

Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c74GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 9 9: Schedule 1, page 26, line 22, leave out "A county court or (in Scotland) a sheriff" ...

Lord Bates | 710 c71-2GC (Link to this contribution) First, I am grateful to those who have spoken, and I particularly thank my noble friend Lord Hodgson...

Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c73GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 7 7: Schedule 1, page 25, leave out lines 15 and 16

Lord Rennard | 710 c74GC (Link to this contribution) The arguments concerning this amendment are identical to those that we had concerning Amendments 2 a...

Lord Henley | 710 c73-4GC (Link to this contribution) I will now offer my noble friend a break from responding to the Government, as the noble Lord, Lord ...

Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c73GC (Link to this contribution) I am pleased that somebody reminded us earlier that we are all experts in this room, and therefore a...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c69GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has just used the word "unpredictable". What happens if our treasurer is on his Carib...

Lord Rennard | 710 c67GC (Link to this contribution) We await the Minister’s reply with interest. Normally, there would be no reason to object to a rapid...

Lord Bates | 710 c67GC (Link to this contribution) That, in a sense, is an appeal. The appeal is to say that they are not the person concerned and that...

Lord Bates | 710 c66GC (Link to this contribution) The amendment inserts a right of appeal in respect of the disclosure notice issued pursuant to parag...

Lord Bates | 710 c66GC (Link to this contribution) Given those assurances, I am grateful for the consideration that the Minister has given to our propo...

Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 710 c64GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask another question. The noble Lord, Lord Bates, mentioned the information going to t...

Lord Rennard | 710 c64GC (Link to this contribution) This is not an amendment that we would support. The requirement of delivery of service by hand to th...

Lord Bach | 710 c64-5GC (Link to this contribution) It is a good job that this amendment is not in force, because if it were we would not have the advan...

Lord Bates | 710 c65-6GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for pointing out that our amendment was probing and was intended to re...

Lord Bach | 710 c66GC (Link to this contribution) To clarify one matter before the noble Lord finishes, I was trying to make it clear that registered ...

Lord Bach | 710 c60GC (Link to this contribution) Schedule 1: Investigatory powers of Commission Amendment 2 2: Schedule 1, page 24, line 24, leave ...

Lord Rennard | 710 c62GC (Link to this contribution) I think that I said investigation.

Lord Bach | 710 c62-3GC (Link to this contribution) In which case, I am sorry to have to disillusion the noble Lord because this government amendment de...

Lord Bates | 710 c60GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her intervention. Yes, we are making heavy weather of this, ...

Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 710 c59-60GC (Link to this contribution) To me, this is making heavy weather of the matter. The noble Lord referred to the question of accoun...

Lord Bach | 710 c58GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that that is implied in the Bill by the various sanctions that are available to the commissio...

Lord Bach | 710 c58-9GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that examples would be very helpful here. The Electoral Commission has responsibility ...

Lord Bates | 710 c59GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. It is indeed broad and that is my point: it is too broad in its prese...

Lord Marland | 710 c55GC (Link to this contribution) One of the reasons that we are here is that the Electoral Commission has failed to use its judgment ...

Lord Borrie | 710 c55GC (Link to this contribution) As I understand the amendment, it is to remove from Clause 1(2), ""taking such steps as they conside...

Lord Tyler | 710 c52-3GC (Link to this contribution) I follow the noble Lord, Lord Bates, by indicating the approach that I and my noble friends intend t...

Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c78GC (Link to this contribution) On the simple question about other media, I am assured that other media are included under the conce...

Lord Tyler | 710 c82GC (Link to this contribution) What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. The commission also is quite capable of taking ...

Lord Bach | 710 c83GC (Link to this contribution) The point that I was trying to make, which I probably did not do clearly enough, was that the commis...

Lord Norton of Louth | 710 c85GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 27 27: After Clause 3, insert the following new Clause— "Education about electoral system...

Lord Norton of Louth | 710 c85-6GC (Link to this contribution) The amendment deals with the functions of the Electoral Commission but from a very different perspec...

Lord Tyler | 710 c87GC (Link to this contribution) I am now better educated, although disappointed. The noble Lord made a very valid point about the ST...

Lord Marland | 710 c88-9GC (Link to this contribution) I confess and declare that I did not go to the University of Hull—in fact I did not go to any univer...

Lord Bates | 710 c91GC (Link to this contribution) Schedule 2: Investigatory powers of Commission Amendment 28 28: Schedule 2, page 31, line 23, afte...

Lord Bates | 710 c100-1GC (Link to this contribution) I understand that I am pressing into areas that are not written down on the application of the provi...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c99GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend, but this is important. If the regime changes in the way tha...

Lord Bates | 710 c100GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the Minister’s reply and for the other contributions to this short discussion on t...

Lord Bates | 710 c96-7GC (Link to this contribution) We now come to a series of considerations on these amendments. This particular proposal is largely c...

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 710 c98GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the Committee for arriving somewhat late, but I have only just come back from across ...

Lord Bates | 710 c96GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 29 29: Schedule 2, page 31, line 25, leave out "a prescribed" and insert "an"

Lord Bates | 710 c104GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful for the Minister’s reply and clarification as to where the 28-day limit applies, ...

Lord Bach | 710 c102-4GC (Link to this contribution) A number of opposition amendments have been tabled which seek to alter some of the detail contained ...

Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen | 710 c104GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned until tomorrow.

Lord Henley | 710 c75GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister for explaining the reasoning behind government Amendment 9, and t...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c78GC (Link to this contribution) I have a simple question for my noble friend, although the answer might be in the Bill. On document ...

Lord Henley | 710 c77-8GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, for what he said about government Amendments 11 t...

Lord Bates | 710 c72-3GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister, but why then cannot it be put in the letter to the individual to whom...

Lord Bates | 710 c69GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 8 is in the same group as this amendment and would have a similar effect. The proposal is ...

Lord Bates | 710 c69GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 6 6: Schedule 1, page 25, line 4, leave out from "within" to end and insert "28 days of t...

Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 710 c71GC (Link to this contribution) First, I believe that this is an adequate provision and that the safeguard in the Bill to prevent th...

Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 710 c70-1GC (Link to this contribution) I see the difficulties of setting a precise date or a number of days, but it seems to me that the no...

Lord Bach | 710 c67-8GC (Link to this contribution) I will address this amendment, even though it deals with supervisory functions, because it also deal...

Lord Borrie | 710 c67GC (Link to this contribution) I find this a rather odd amendment, partly for the reasons that my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savour...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c67GC (Link to this contribution) Surely in those circumstances the person who has received this notice would simply write back and sa...

Lord Bach | 710 c66GC (Link to this contribution) It may be an option in a given situation, but I do not think that they should be confined to doing i...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c63-4GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask the noble Lord a very simple question. What happens if the person on whom the noti...

Lord Bates | 710 c63GC (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to move Amendment 4. I had not expected to move the Minister to tears so early in pro...

Lord Bach | 710 c60-1GC (Link to this contribution) Government Amendments 2 and 3 provide for a time limitation on the commission’s ability to issue a d...

Lord Bates | 710 c61-2GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. It is similar to one that we have proposed and relates to a discussion in t...

Lord Rennard | 710 c62GC (Link to this contribution) I should declare an interest in this matter—perhaps a more direct interest than some noble Lords pre...

Lord Bach | 710 c62GC (Link to this contribution) Before I begin my very short reply, did the noble Lord say information or investigation?

Lord Bach | 710 c60GC (Link to this contribution) The Electoral Commission does not have blanket powers. It is accountable to Parliament via the Speak...

Lord Bach | 710 c55-8GC (Link to this contribution) I thank noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I apologise that the important government amendm...

Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 710 c58GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister sits down, will he consider whether his purpose in resisting the amendment might...

Subjects

Civil proceedings Finance Elections Enforcement Fixed penalties Electoral Commission Electoral register Powers Political parties Sanctions

Legislation

Political Parties and Elections Bill 2007-08 to 2008-09

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk