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Debate on bill on Tuesday, 23 November 2010, in the House of Lords.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Public Bodies Bill (HL). Committee stage first day. Clause 1 (Power to Abolish) under consideration.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
722 c1009-46, 1056-72, 1086-1106 
Session
2010-12
Department
Cabinet Office
Committee of the Whole House (HL)
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
Government defeats
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Woolf | 722 c1024 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as always the noble Lord, Lord Lester, has made a good point. But the fact of the matter i...
Lord Soley | 722 c1045 (Link to this contribution) The Minister now understands clearly—and probably has done from the beginning—that there is acute co...
Show all contributions (119)
Countess of Mar | 722 c1038 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord appreciate that he might withdraw his amendment, but that the Committee might no...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 722 c1058 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should like to begin by expressing my appreciation to the Minister for having brought fo...
Baroness Andrews | 722 c1063 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, one of the concerns that is so blindingly obvious—and this refers as much to Kew as to any...
Lord Greaves | 722 c1101-2 (Link to this contribution) I give general support to the general idea behind the amendment. The details of the amendment are pr...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 722 c1024 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, may I respectfully ask the noble and learned Lord a question? By implication, I think he i...
Lord Renton of Mount Harry | 722 c1022 (Link to this contribution) Like the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, I served on the Constitution Committee that produced the first re...
Lord Woolf | 722 c1022-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if what we were embarked on in this Bill was tidying up and that was the exercise to which...
Lord Soley | 722 c1019-21 (Link to this contribution) We have just heard four very powerful speeches, which I hope will influence the Government. I shall ...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 722 c1018-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry to invite the Committee to listen to another lawyer quite so soon. I regret ver...
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 722 c1018 (Link to this contribution) The idea is that they should have regard to those objectives. If the objectives are no longer requir...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 722 c1018 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness makes a powerful case, but can she help me? The powers in the Bill are wide enoug...
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 722 c1016-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I endorse the words of both noble Lords, Lord Lester of Herne Hill and Lord Pannick. I urg...
Lord Pannick | 722 c1016 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that there would be ample room for argument in the courts. I am concerned that we do not l...
Lord Pannick | 722 c1014-5 (Link to this contribution) I have added my name to the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, for a si...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 722 c1014 (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Lord’s Amendments 1 and 175. What he said was wholly consistent with the acknowl...
Lord Pannick | 722 c1015-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord. Of course, that is precisely what Parliament did in the 2006 Act. A...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 722 c1015 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I am entirely sympathetic to what he and my noble fr...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 722 c1016 (Link to this contribution) If the Government were to prevail so far as the amendment was concerned, could the issue be raised a...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 722 c1010 (Link to this contribution) 1: Clause 1, page 1, line 3, at beginning insert ““Subject to section (Restrictions on ministerial p...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 722 c1010-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment stands in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. I shall speak al...
Lord Soley | 722 c1039 (Link to this contribution) I understand the noble Lord’s dilemma as we have discussed it before. If I were asked whether the Mi...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 722 c1039 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, but in the end I have to form a judgment about how we as creditors,...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 722 c1038 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that it is different. If anything, it is stronger; but it is certainly as strong as i...
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 722 c1038 (Link to this contribution) Can the noble Lord explain the difference between the strength of feeling at Second Reading—which we...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 722 c1038-9 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that. I ask noble Lords to consider that, if there were a vote, I would not be able to ...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 722 c1036-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this has been a remarkable debate, with more than 20 speeches that will be read long after...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 722 c1033-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to speak to the Government’s amendments in this grouping. I am delighted to have th...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 722 c1038 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for asking a question which I am trying to answer as I speak. The Mi...
Lord Pannick | 722 c1038 (Link to this contribution) After a two-hour debate on matters of fundamental importance, does the noble Lord accept that it wou...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c1030-2 (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak to my Amendment 175 and to support the amendments in the names of the noble Lords, L...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 722 c1030 (Link to this contribution) Did the committee of which the noble Baroness is a member conclude that the powers in this Bill are ...
Baroness O'Loan | 722 c1030 (Link to this contribution) I would not wish to speak of the committee without referring back to the report, but we did conclude...
Baroness O'Loan | 722 c1029-30 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee,...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 722 c1028 (Link to this contribution) I would like to say a few words, so I propose to speak for about two minutes. I think that the indi...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 722 c1028 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, may I mention two matters very briefly? The first is the matter that was dealt with so mag...
Lord Ramsbotham | 722 c1027 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I make a very brief point to support my noble and learned friend Lord Woolf in his support...
Baroness Andrews | 722 c1026-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is a great honour to follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf. I shall refer to in...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 722 c1025 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise, first, because I want to get a word in edgeways as a non-lawyer; and, secondly, be...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 722 c1024-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope the Committee will forgive me for not being present throughout the debate on this f...
Baroness Andrews | 722 c1057-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment in the name of my noble friend. I very much welcome the Minister’s...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c1056-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, for the convenience of the House, I should explain that today we split my original Amendme...
Lord Clark of Windermere | 722 c1059 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should like to press the Minister a little on the Government’s new clause in Amendment 1...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c1060-1 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has brought up a Bill of blessed memory to many noble Lords, including of course the ...
Lord Greaves | 722 c1059-60 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have a number of amendments in this group—Amendments 115 to 117, 128, 129 and 170 to 172...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c1061 (Link to this contribution) I doubt that the noble Lord will find any written instruction, but you do not need written instructi...
Lord Greaves | 722 c1061 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I heard the comments made to that effect by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, on a previous amend...
Lord Greaves | 722 c1061-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Her Majesty’s loyal and Official Opposition may be having trouble, but all Members of this...
Lord Berkeley | 722 c1061 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, can I come in on the same issue? I have already been in contact with three organisations a...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c1056 (Link to this contribution) 3A: Page 1, line 3, at beginning insert ““Subject to section (Consultation)””
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 722 c1044-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, these amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, would ...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 722 c1042-4 (Link to this contribution) In moving Amendment 2, I shall speak also to Amendment 181. These amendments would introduce a sunse...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 722 c1042 (Link to this contribution) 2: Clause 1, page 1, line 3, at beginning insert ““Subject to the provisions of section (Duration of...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 722 c1046 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response to my amendments. I think that he has said ...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 722 c1046 (Link to this contribution) I am prepared to consider everything. I do not rule anything out, because that is the wrong way to a...
Lord Adonis | 722 c1046 (Link to this contribution) Did I understand the Minister to say that the further conversations he would undertake with my noble...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 722 c1045-6 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Soley, for that suggestion. It is well intentioned and reflects a cours...
Lord Liddle | 722 c1066-7 (Link to this contribution) One welcomes the steps that the Government are taking in the Bill to ensure that there is wider cons...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 722 c1067 (Link to this contribution) We are in effect debating all these bodies, as the noble Lord knows, and when we come to Schedule 1 ...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c1066 (Link to this contribution) With great respect, perhaps we may go back to the Marine and Coastal Access Bill. We spent six happy...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 722 c1066 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has expressed his point of view and I have given him the point of view from the Dispa...
Lord Greaves | 722 c1066 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I previously backed up what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt,...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 722 c1066 (Link to this contribution) Heavens above, my Lords, I do not think that I can really be such a door-opener. What might we find?...
Baroness Andrews | 722 c1065 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord giving way. It is very important that we have clarification. The bod...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 722 c1065 (Link to this contribution) Of course, it is intended that departments will review the bodies that are listed in Schedule 7; tha...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c1065-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I am also grateful for his suggestion that I am usua...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 722 c1066 (Link to this contribution) It is quite difficult for government bodies to speak out against government policy. The noble Lord h...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 722 c1064-5 (Link to this contribution) That comes back to the process. Schedule 7 lists those bodies. The review initiated by my right hono...
Baroness Andrews | 722 c1064 (Link to this contribution) If it is the case that nothing will happen to many or some of the bodies on the list, why are they o...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 722 c1064 (Link to this contribution) I hope that when we come to those clauses of the Bill, we will be able to discuss this and make it c...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c1064 (Link to this contribution) It is not that I have not had critical comments: I have not had any comments.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 722 c1063-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I speak to the Government’s amendments as well as the other amendments in this group. The ...
Lord Clark of Windermere | 722 c1064 (Link to this contribution) On that specific point, the commissioners are appointed at a GB level. The Minister is quite right o...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 722 c1062 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am tempted, once again, by a reference to the Administrative Justice and Tribunals Counc...
Viscount Eccles | 722 c1062 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wish to make a brief comment on bodies not being brave enough to comment on what is in f...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c1071 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in my remarks I very advisedly quoted public legislation. I think it is a very rum do inde...
Baroness Rawlings | 722 c1072 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think this might be the moment for the Committee to break. I beg to move that the House ...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c1086 (Link to this contribution) 3B: Page 1, line 3, at beginning insert ““Subject to sections (Procedure: introductory), (Informatio...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c1086-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are very much making progress as we reach Amendment 3B at quarter to nine tonight. This...
Lord Whitty | 722 c1069 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as a Member of this House, I can say what I like. As an officer of one of the bodies cover...
Viscount Eccles | 722 c1069 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may have one more go at this. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and I have held posit...
Lord Clark of Windermere | 722 c1069-70 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I can give an example of the Information Commissioner listed in Schedule 7. One of...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 722 c1070-1 (Link to this contribution) I am not saying that at all. I do not suppose that any Member of this House will be able to say that...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c1071 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, for his extensive response to the points raised in th...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 722 c1071 (Link to this contribution) Natural England has been very keen to comment at certain stages of the legislation and the noble Lor...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 722 c1069 (Link to this contribution) I think the noble Lord has got it totally wrong. I made it quite clear that any discussions concerni...
Lord Whitty | 722 c1069 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if that is where the line is, we understand it. Public bodies were set up primarily to adm...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 722 c1068 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry but I am not prepared to concede that. I think that it would take public bodies into the ...
Lord Whitty | 722 c1068-9 (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest as the chair of Consumer Focus for a few more days. Does the noble Lord not re...
Viscount Eccles | 722 c1069 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it would help me if the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, would tell the House how he could be prev...
Lord Liddle | 722 c1067 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry but that is not what the noble Lord’s Amendment 114 says. He is talking about a consultat...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 722 c1068 (Link to this contribution) I am not in a position to say that because I do not believe that that is what public bodies exist to...
Baroness O'Loan | 722 c1068 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am still having some difficulty in understanding the Government’s position and in knowin...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 722 c1067-8 (Link to this contribution) I have been passed a very helpful brief by my noble friend the Minister with responsibility for thes...
Lord Clark of Windermere | 722 c1068 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may try to clarify the position—and for once I am not talking about forestry or the Forest...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 722 c1097 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may take the noble Lord back to that section of my speech which addressed this issue. I wa...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c1095-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I join with other noble Lords in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, for his response an...
Lord Norton of Louth | 722 c1097 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not want to digress too much into academic discussion on conventions, but the fact th...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 722 c1088-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am taking the highly unusual step of intervening briefly at this stage as chair of the D...
Lord Norton of Louth | 722 c1090 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall be brief because the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas of Winchester, has said everythin...
Lord Adonis | 722 c1089-90 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Baroness has made an immensely powerful case and the House is deeply indebted to...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 722 c1091-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this group of amendments concerns the central question of parliamentary scrutiny and proce...
Lord Clark of Windermere | 722 c1091 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wish to follow the noble Lord, Lord Norton, because his point about the role of Parliame...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 722 c1095 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may respond to the noble Lord. I am grateful to him for making the point, which is perfect...
Lord Adonis | 722 c1094-5 (Link to this contribution) The Committee will be extremely grateful to the noble Lord for indicating that he will consider this...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 722 c1103-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendments 4 and 180 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and the noble Baroness, La...
Lord Liddle | 722 c1102-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support this amendment and I agree very much with the comments of the noble Lords, Lord ...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c1097-8 (Link to this contribution) I have certainly noticed the reluctance of the Liberal Democrat Benches to put things to the vote; s...
Lord Greaves | 722 c1097 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, might consider that the relevant statistic is the number of occas...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 722 c1097 (Link to this contribution) I think that I might change my wording to ““custom””.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 722 c1097 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is a very helpful intervention. The Minister said ““by convention””. I am afraid that...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 722 c1102 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I very much agree with the purpose of Amendment 180. It is of fundamental importance that ...
Lord Rosser | 722 c1098-100 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a Bill that lacks detail and it lacks background information. As we heard at Secon...
Lord Rosser | 722 c1098 (Link to this contribution) 4: Clause 1, page 1, line 3, at beginning insert ““Subject to the provisions of section (Commencemen...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 722 c1104 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether my noble friend would consider the possibility, if not of accepting the amendment i...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 722 c1104 (Link to this contribution) As noble Lords will know, an amendment follows on from this that concerns functions—not this evening...
Lord Rosser | 722 c1104-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response, and other noble Lords who have participated in this...
Subjects
Accountability Closures Delegated legislation Judiciary Judicial Appointments Commission for England and Wales Ministerial powers Public bodies Public consultation Parliamentary scrutiny Non-departmental public bodies Regional development agencies Henry VIII clauses Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee Rail Passengers Council Youth Justice Board Legal Services Board Consumer Focus Sunset clauses
Legislation
Public Bodies Bill (HL) 2010-12
Link
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