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Debate on bill and Committee proceeding on Monday, 6 December 2010, in the House of Lords.

Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill [HL]

Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill [HL]. Lords committee stage debate (third day). Clause 4-7 amendments debated. Clauses 4-8 agreed without amendment. Committee adjourned. Grand committee held in the Moses Room

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
723 c1-36GC 
Session
2010-12
Department
Treasury
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Higgins | 723 c9GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are grateful to the Minister, who has clarified a number of points. I will come back to...
Lord Eatwell | 723 c34GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord sounds like the fellows in my college whose standard reaction to any proposal of mine...
Show all contributions (107)
Lord Eatwell | 723 c14-5GC (Link to this contribution) While I agree with the Minister that doing an assessment yourself makes for a learning experience, h...
Lord Barnett | 723 c15-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 25 is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Peston. Everything that I have...
Lord Higgins | 723 c25-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it may be convenient also to consider Amendments 31 and 32. When I first looked at Clause ...
Lord Eatwell | 723 c31GC (Link to this contribution) 36: Clause 6, page 3, line 10, leave out paragraph (b)
Lord Turnbull | 723 c32GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment, at least in so far as it relates to Clause 5(2), for much the same reasons ...
Lord Newby | 723 c27-8GC (Link to this contribution) We had a long debate on this issue at our previous meeting and I am not going to rehearse all the ar...
Lord Higgins | 723 c34GC (Link to this contribution) 37: Clause 7, page 3, line 16, leave out ““aim to””
Lord Higgins | 723 c34GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment, which has a whole clause to itself, is not difficult to understand. The Bil...
Lord Sassoon | 723 c34-5GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, of course the OBR should be cost-effective and efficient—there is no question about that—a...
Lord Sassoon | 723 c33GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether this will help, but just to be clear, we are expecting the OBR to assess the i...
Lord Eatwell | 723 c35GC (Link to this contribution) We have always done it that way.
Lord Sassoon | 723 c35-6GC (Link to this contribution) Of course, in the wider context, the accounting officer will have to answer for the OBR’s cost-effec...
Lord Higgins | 723 c36GC (Link to this contribution) It will be a question of it coming not to court but to the NAO, which is dealt with in the second pa...
Lord De Mauley | 723 c36GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this might be a convenient if somewhat early moment for the Committee to adjourn until Thu...
Lord Eatwell | 723 c3GC (Link to this contribution) Gosh, that was quite a loosening up. I think that the noble Lord has taken the point. In my reading,...
Lord Higgins | 723 c3GC (Link to this contribution) 22: Clause 4, page 2, line 26, at end insert— ““( ) The Office must publish with its forecasts the a...
Lord Higgins | 723 c3-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it should be convenient, as has been suggested, that we discuss Amendments 26 and 39 at th...
Lord Eatwell | 723 c4-5GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend Lord Peston suggested to me that I should follow the introduction of this ...
Lord Colwyn | 723 c1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have the usual announcement to start with: if there is a Division in the Chamber while w...
Lord Eatwell | 723 c1GC (Link to this contribution) 20: Clause 4, page 2, line 20, at end insert— ““( ) In fulfilling its duty imposed by subsection (1)...
Lord Eatwell | 723 c1-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before moving on to Amendment 20, I shall make a couple of general remarks about how we ha...
Lord Sassoon | 723 c2-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am happy to start by saying that I agree that we should, as far as possible, stick to th...
Lord Myners | 723 c9-10GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I, too, may make a comment. I took the Minister’s reply to the question asked by the noble B...
Lord Sassoon | 723 c9GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may clarify that. There will be one official forecast, which the OBR will produce. The Tre...
Lord Eatwell | 723 c9GC (Link to this contribution) I do not quite follow that. If the Treasury is going to disagree, or at least have the capability of...
Lord Myners | 723 c6-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, speak in favour of the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Higgins. Unlike my...
Lord Sassoon | 723 c7-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this discussion has been interesting because it confirms how much material the OBR has alr...
Lord Peston | 723 c5-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, noble Lords will be aware from my remarks last time in Committee that I would not have set...
Lord Eatwell | 723 c9GC (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble Lord that the amount of information that is published has increased, to gener...
Baroness Browning | 723 c8GC (Link to this contribution) Will my noble friend confirm that, in the event of the Treasury not using the OBR’s forecast, it wil...
Lord Sassoon | 723 c8GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, I can confirm that, although that is not in any way the expectation. On the specific question ...
Lord Eatwell | 723 c11GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, from our side, the point is not that that capability should not be there, as it clearly sh...
Lord Burns | 723 c11GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may add to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. The OBR will produ...
Lord Myners | 723 c12GC (Link to this contribution) Further forecasts on the economy are made in government. I believe that the Department for Business ...
Lord Higgins | 723 c11-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I understand the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Burns, and I should like to think furthe...
Lord Sassoon | 723 c10GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there will not be another official internal forecast. There will be the forecast of the OB...
Lord Higgins | 723 c10GC (Link to this contribution) I find this rather difficult. The Minister raises his eyebrows. I simply do not understand what the ...
Baroness Noakes | 723 c10GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may suggest to my noble friend that much of the debate in Committee has been concerned wit...
Baroness Browning | 723 c10GC (Link to this contribution) My earlier question came from reading the evidence of Professor Wren-Lewis to the Select Committee. ...
Lord Sassoon | 723 c12GC (Link to this contribution) I love it when noble Lords preface their remarks by saying, ““This may not be the place in which to ...
Baroness Noakes | 723 c14GC (Link to this contribution) I suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Peston, that it is not so much the requirement to do the assessmen...
Lord Peston | 723 c13-4GC (Link to this contribution) May I interrupt the noble Lord? I am totally puzzled now. The noble Lord uses the word ““requirement...
Lord Sassoon | 723 c14GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am confused by this, because there are certain other things that I would have thought it...
Lord Higgins | 723 c12GC (Link to this contribution) I gladly accept that offer and beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 22 withdrawn. Amendm...
Lord Eatwell | 723 c12GC (Link to this contribution) 23: Clause 4, page 2, line 28, leave out paragraph (a)
Lord Eatwell | 723 c13GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, at Second Reading it was acknowledged on all sides of the House that requiring the OBR to ...
Baroness Noakes | 723 c13GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, has already referred to the fact that I did not support the ...
Lord Eatwell | 723 c13GC (Link to this contribution) I was hoping to provide space for those who feel as strongly as I do, as apparently does the noble B...
Lord Sassoon | 723 c13GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, am a bit puzzled as to why we are discussing only half the linked story, but my no...
Lord Sassoon | 723 c20GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend for trying to bring this back into perspective. Of course the OBR s...
Lord Eatwell | 723 c19-20GC (Link to this contribution) While agreeing with the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, I think that there is an important point here. ...
Lord Myners | 723 c19GC (Link to this contribution) Before we rush away to look for this information on the website, let me say this: the noble Lord is ...
Lord Sassoon | 723 c19GC (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord knows very well, if he would like to ask the question, I will pass it on to Mr Cho...
Lord Myners | 723 c19GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that the answer is entirely satisfactory. The Chancellor described this as an audit. H...
Baroness Noakes | 723 c19GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Opposition are getting overexcited this afternoon. The small phrase in the announcemen...
Lord Peston | 723 c18GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but I would really like my question to be answered. I do not want to know the form; I wa...
Lord Sassoon | 723 c18GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the scrutiny is one of the things that underpin what the noble Lord calls ““the big docume...
Lord Peston | 723 c18GC (Link to this contribution) I would like to see where they are. I know the difference between form and substance, and I would li...
Lord Sassoon | 723 c19GC (Link to this contribution) I would need to go back to the Treasury website, but I believe that in among all the supplementary d...
Lord Sassoon | 723 c18GC (Link to this contribution) Indeed, my Lords, as I said, the form of the scrutiny is set out in the terms of reference given to ...
Lord Peston | 723 c18GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, when it suits him, the noble Lord is keen on the casual use of language. Can I take it tha...
Lord Sassoon | 723 c17-8GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend for delivering my script for me. Perhaps I should declare my intere...
Baroness Noakes | 723 c17GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, has gone a bit over the top in describing Mr Chote and his c...
Lord Eatwell | 723 c15GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the supervision. However, if we look forward, we will be discussing a set of amend...
Lord Barnett | 723 c15GC (Link to this contribution) 25: Clause 4, page 2, line 32, at end insert ““but shall not be regarded as an audit””
Lord Eatwell | 723 c15GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. It is, as we say, a learning experience.
Lord Higgins | 723 c15GC (Link to this contribution) It is very simple. You ring up the Whips Office and say, ““I don’t like the way in which it has been...
Lord Sassoon | 723 c23-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Myners, accused himself of being churlish. The noble Lord, Lord Burns...
Lord Burns | 723 c23GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Newby. The noble Lord, Lord Myners, knows th...
Lord Peston | 723 c24GC (Link to this contribution) 29: Clause 5, page 2, line 35, at end insert ““; and it may, in particular, take evidence from exper...
Lord Myners | 723 c24GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, far be it from me to wish to cause mischief. I have listened with great interest to the co...
Lord Sassoon | 723 c24-5GC (Link to this contribution) I shall try to be almost as brief. I agree absolutely that the OBR should have access to external ex...
Lord Peston | 723 c24GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, of course I tabled Amendment 29 before I had heard the Minister’s replies to many other am...
Lord Higgins | 723 c25GC (Link to this contribution) 30: Clause 5, page 3, line 1, leave out subsection (3)
Lord Peston | 723 c25GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister very much for that answer. I, too, am making the assumption that the OBR will r...
Lord Eatwell | 723 c26GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, when I prepared my speaking note for a discussion of this series of amendments to Clause 5...
Lord Newby | 723 c23GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sure that all noble Lords wish that Chancellors were models of balance and completene...
Lord Barnett | 723 c20GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there is no need for noble Lords to waste their time looking at websites. I submitted a Wr...
Lord Barnett | 723 c21GC (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, read the website carefully. She did not quote it to ...
Lord Barnett | 723 c21GC (Link to this contribution) I must tell the noble Lord that I may not be doing my job properly, but I do not spend my life going...
Lord Sassoon | 723 c20-1GC (Link to this contribution) Forgive me, but I went through the detail of what was published on the OBR’s website by Mr Chote, an...
Lord Myners | 723 c22-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in many ways the points that I want to make here have already been made by my noble friend...
Lord Myners | 723 c21GC (Link to this contribution) 28: Clause 4, page 2, line 32, at end insert— ““( ) There is a duty on the Office to comment on the ...
Lord Barnett | 723 c21GC (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 25 withdrawn. Sitting suspended for a Division in...
Lord Colwyn | 723 c21GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, a Division is taking place. Does the noble Lord feel that he can wind up in 30 seconds, in...
Lord Sassoon | 723 c30GC (Link to this contribution) In summary, I cannot promise that there is any way of making of all this clearer. I think that there...
Lord Burns | 723 c30GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may help the noble Lord, Lord Peston. One must assume that the Monetary Policy Committee w...
Lord Eatwell | 723 c30GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord withdraws his amendment, I agree entirely with the Minister that there is a cl...
Lord Higgins | 723 c30GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is a very sensible reaction on the part of the Minister.
Lord Eatwell | 723 c33GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord. If we get Clause 5(3) right, it may work very well, but we have bee...
Lord Sassoon | 723 c32-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I find this interesting because what the noble Lords, Lord Eatwell and Lord Turnbull, have...
Lord Higgins | 723 c30-1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the whole purpose of a Committee stage is to get to the bottom of certain difficult aspect...
Lord Eatwell | 723 c31-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 36 refers to Clause 6(1)(b) and seeks to remove the attempt to qualify Clause 5(...
Lord Peston | 723 c27GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I speak to Amendment 32, which is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Barnett. Whe...
Lord Higgins | 723 c27GC (Link to this contribution) I should perhaps have said in my opening remarks that I had, in effect, had second thoughts. It may ...
Lord Sassoon | 723 c30GC (Link to this contribution) I assume that in all normal circumstances it will look intently at the forecasts of the MPC about fu...
Lord Peston | 723 c29-30GC (Link to this contribution) Since we are putting this on the statute book, is it the case that the OBR would not be offending th...
Lord Sassoon | 723 c29GC (Link to this contribution) When I talk about government policies, I mean government policies. What assumptions the OBR makes ab...
Lord Peston | 723 c29GC (Link to this contribution) Can the noble Lord give one clarification on that? We all agree that, if we are going to have an OBR...
Lord Sassoon | 723 c28-9GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I might go back to confirming what we are seeking to do and not to do in the Bill....
Lord Burns | 723 c28GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, for the reasons that I have set out about the importance of the political impartiality of ...
Lord Burns | 723 c28GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Newby. I had hoped that the purpose of the clause was to...
Subjects
Disclosure of information Audit Cost effectiveness Budgets Economic situation Forecasts Public finance Research Office for Budget Responsibility
Legislation
Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill (HL) 2010-12
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk