Parliamentary Search

Backbench debate on Thursday, 10 February 2011, in the House of Commons, led by David Davis. The answering member was Dominic Grieve.

Voting by Prisoners

Twentieth backbench debate. Agreed to on division (234 to 22).

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
523 c493-586 
Session
2010-12
Department
Attorney General
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Speaker | 523 c505 (Link to this contribution) Order. Everybody will be well aware that there is a five-minute limit. We have 39 speakers to get th...
Lord McCabe | 523 c541 (Link to this contribution) May I first apologise for missing the start of the debate? I was serving on a Public Bill Committee ...
Show all contributions (321)
David Ruffley | 523 c540-1 (Link to this contribution) There is no point in the right hon. Gentleman shaking his head—he should read the history. I am sure...
David Ruffley | 523 c540 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman really does not know his history. If he reads the Denning autobiography, he...
Simon Hughes | 523 c540 (Link to this contribution) I cannot remember the exact details, but to my recollection, Lord Denning served as a judge in the h...
David Ruffley | 523 c539-40 (Link to this contribution) The right to life; the right to freedom of expression; the right to assembly; the right not to be to...
Lord McCabe | 523 c541 (Link to this contribution) I am spoilt for choice. I give way to the hon. Lady.
Heather Wheeler | 523 c541 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that in his many years in the House, the hon. Gentleman has visited prisons, so is he surp...
Lord McCabe | 523 c542-3 (Link to this contribution) Well, it is Liberal Democrat policy to give votes to prisoners, so I suppose that that makes a certa...
Tom Harris | 523 c542 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend might like to know about the revelation in this morning's papers that the odious indi...
Jeremy Corbyn | 523 c543 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right about where we would end up with a pick-and-mix solution. I am sure that...
Tom Brake | 523 c543 (Link to this contribution) This afternoon, I feared cutting a rather lonely figure when standing up to argue that we should all...
Simon Hughes | 523 c544 (Link to this contribution) Nor do we prevent prisoners from continuing to have obligations outside—for example, in relation to ...
Tom Brake | 523 c544 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that my right hon. Friend and many others here have engaged with prisoners, and that he wi...
Lord Lilley | 523 c544 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. The answer to his question about why we take away th...
Tom Brake | 523 c544 (Link to this contribution) I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that intervention, but that is a matter on which we will have t...
Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 523 c545 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Lady agree that the House should be able to make a value judgment between a civic righ...
Kate Green | 523 c545 (Link to this contribution) It is a little unnerving to find myself disagreeing with so many right hon. and hon. Members and wit...
Tom Brake | 523 c545 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman will know that civil prisoners are also entitled to vote, and have been thr...
Jack Straw | 523 c544-5 (Link to this contribution) The difference between the people in prison who can vote and those who cannot is very clear and, sel...
Gareth Johnson | 523 c547 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that no one is being forced to forfeit their vote? Criminals choose to for...
Rehman Chishti | 523 c547 (Link to this contribution) I start my comments in light of the doctrine of the supremacy of Parliament, as set out in Hood Phil...
Kate Green | 523 c546-7 (Link to this contribution) I am running short of time and I know many other Members wish to speak. It is important to reflect ...
Kate Green | 523 c546 (Link to this contribution) My point is that this external pressure is useful, as it repeatedly questions what our understanding...
Rehman Chishti | 523 c547 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has highlighted the fundamental point that people have rights and responsibilities. ...
Tom Harris | 523 c547 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and to the House for my earlier absence and for missing th...
Chris Bryant | 523 c550 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to stop the hon. Gentleman's drift, but one of the problems with that argument is that ma...
Tom Harris | 523 c549 (Link to this contribution) I am not going to give way. I am not a lawyer, so much of the process here is beyond me. However, t...
Tony Baldry | 523 c549-50 (Link to this contribution) The last Labour Government spent five years dithering over this issue. They did nothing. As with so ...
Tom Harris | 523 c548-9 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I am sure that had it not been for the judgment in Europe, the Hous...
Tom Harris | 523 c548 (Link to this contribution) Certainly it was the only strategy that was discussed. I therefore do not want to encourage my colle...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 523 c548 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Would not implementing the European Court's decision also re...
Tom Harris | 523 c548 (Link to this contribution) No, Brussels. Let me begin with as much of a mea culpa as a humble Back Bencher can offer for the p...
Simon Reevell | 523 c555 (Link to this contribution) I used the phrase ““pick and choose””, but it comes to the same thing. We are entitled to moderate ...
Ben Gummer | 523 c555-6 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) got to the heart of the matter...
Baroness Burt of Solihull | 523 c556 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making a cohesive argument, but I ask him to reflect on what we are doing here...
Ben Gummer | 523 c556-7 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Lady for that point, because it brings me to the second matter of principle that I ...
Claire O'Neill | 523 c552-4 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I did not expect to be called so soon. I am of course not a lawyer...
Simon Reevell | 523 c554-5 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased that this has not just been an in or out of the European Court of Human Rights debate, ...
Andrew Bridgen | 523 c555 (Link to this contribution) Is not the crux of the argument that by supporting the motion this afternoon, we are not seeking to ...
Tony Baldry | 523 c550-1 (Link to this contribution) I listened to the hon. Gentleman's speech. He raised lots of problems but gave no solutions. This is...
Lord Lilley | 523 c551-2 (Link to this contribution) As I read the judgments in the cases of Hirst, and Greens and M.T., I was struck by the supreme iron...
Thomas Docherty | 523 c559 (Link to this contribution) I have a great deal of time for the hon. Lady, but on this occasion she and I will have to disagree,...
Thomas Docherty | 523 c559 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for not being in the Chamber earlier, as I was in the Armed Forces Bill Committee. That ...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 523 c559 (Link to this contribution) In fact, it was the previous Government who did nothing to help our armed forces to get the vote. So...
Andrew Bridgen | 523 c561 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that we have been assured, and often reassured, in the House that we are a...
Thomas Docherty | 523 c559-60 (Link to this contribution) The Attorney-General shakes his head, but this is a Liberal Democrat policy. I remind him that in 20...
Martin Vickers | 523 c560-1 (Link to this contribution) It has become a badge of honour to stand up in this debate and say, ““I am not a lawyer.”” The hon. ...
Baroness Coffey | 523 c557-8 (Link to this contribution) I shall see you later. [Interruption.] Sorry, I do not mean ““I shall see Madam Deputy Speaker later...
Baroness Coffey | 523 c557 (Link to this contribution) It is a privilege, not a right, to participate in this place, and one that I enjoy thanks to the vot...
Nick Boles | 523 c562-3 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry. I will not give way because we have very little time. What is the root of the problem? ...
Ian Davidson | 523 c563 (Link to this contribution) I wish to echo the remarks of the hon. Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers), who started off by s...
Chris Bryant | 523 c563 (Link to this contribution) I said, ““Not too subtle””!
Ian Davidson | 523 c563 (Link to this contribution) The distinction between ““Not too subtle”” and ““Too subtle”” is too subtle for me, I must confess. ...
Martin Vickers | 523 c561 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely. I, too, thought I was being elected to a sovereign body, but as the weeks go by I ...
Speaker | 523 c561 (Link to this contribution) Order. I think he's finished.
Nick Boles | 523 c561-2 (Link to this contribution) This has been a very interesting debate, and rather unusual for me. I have to confess that in most d...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 523 c566 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) is right in much of what he says. ...
Peter Bottomley | 523 c565-6 (Link to this contribution) In the debate in Westminster Hall on 11 January, I quoted Justice Dennis Challeen. He said—I will pr...
Jack Straw | 523 c565 (Link to this contribution) It may not have been strong, but it was true.
Peter Bottomley | 523 c564-5 (Link to this contribution) When someone is convicted of an offence, a number of elements are available to the court in disposin...
Ian Davidson | 523 c563-4 (Link to this contribution) Rotherham sorry. Again, perhaps I do not know the distinction. When the Member for Rotherham and Bru...
Brian Binley | 523 c567-8 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris), who is no longer in his place—[Interrupt...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 523 c567 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Mr Hirst killed a woman with an axe. He pleaded guilty to mansl...
Henry Smith | 523 c567 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has hit the nail on the head. This is about malice on the part of this individual and...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 523 c566 (Link to this contribution) I am not saying that at all; the hon. Lady has totally misinterpreted what I have said. Mr Hirst, w...
Baroness Burt of Solihull | 523 c566 (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, the hon. Lady is proceeding on the principle of ““an eye for an eye and a tooth ...
Richard Shepherd | 523 c570 (Link to this contribution) First, I wish to express my gratitude that both Law Officers, the Attorney-General and the Solicitor...
Anna Soubry | 523 c569-70 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley). I shall begin ...
Richard Shepherd | 523 c571 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman should also remember that Lord Jowett and the Labour Cabinet were greatly anxious...
Chris Bryant | 523 c571 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right that it happened under a Labour Government, but it happened with the ful...
Brian Binley | 523 c568-9 (Link to this contribution) Yes, it is Lord Hoffmann, who said that it was"““not proper for a European supranational court to in...
Richard Shepherd | 523 c571-2 (Link to this contribution) No, as I have only three minutes and 49 seconds left. Moving forward in time, the Hirst case caused...
Mark Reckless | 523 c572 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that this House may assist the Government to get out of this dilemma by pa...
Gordon Henderson | 523 c572 (Link to this contribution) Unlike my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), I support the motion. I do so because i...
Jeremy Corbyn | 523 c573 (Link to this contribution) I am listening intently to the hon. Gentleman. Does he recognise that those opinions dissented from ...
Stephen Phillips | 523 c573 (Link to this contribution) Notwithstanding the comments of my hon. Friends the Members for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) ...
Gordon Henderson | 523 c572-3 (Link to this contribution) It would be very odd if I did not agree with my hon. Friend. The first reason for putting people in...
Priti Patel | 523 c575 (Link to this contribution) It is a real pleasure to follow my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham...
Stephen Phillips | 523 c574-5 (Link to this contribution) Yes, it will. One of the difficulties that the Government face, and which those arguing the case in ...
Ben Gummer | 523 c574 (Link to this contribution) On that point, if the House expresses this opinion today, and if the Court takes that into account, ...
Stephen Phillips | 523 c573-4 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention, but I ask the hon. Gentleman to listen to where I am going rath...
Robert Halfon | 523 c576 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a powerful case. Is she aware that in 2002, Sweden had a problem with an aspect...
Priti Patel | 523 c575 (Link to this contribution) Indeed I do, and I thank my hon. Friend for his contribution. The majority of the public believe tha...
Matthew Offord | 523 c575 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree with me and people in my constituency that there is another reason that ma...
Priti Patel | 523 c576 (Link to this contribution) That is a good example. We need to start exercising our rights more vigorously and standing up for B...
Baroness Burt of Solihull | 523 c577 (Link to this contribution) I believe that it is a human right, as I have said a number of times, and it is categorised as such ...
Baroness Burt of Solihull | 523 c576-7 (Link to this contribution) I am probably the only Member of the House to have served as a prison officer and an assistant gover...
Nick de Bois | 523 c577 (Link to this contribution) I have listened carefully to the hon. Lady and to her last suggestion that we are taking away prison...
Robert Buckland | 523 c578 (Link to this contribution) I will not, because other hon. Members wish to speak, and I do not want to eat into their time. In ...
Robert Buckland | 523 c577-8 (Link to this contribution) We have had an interesting debate and a number of ideas have come forward from both the Front and, m...
Baroness Burt of Solihull | 523 c577 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not give way again. Colleagues, let us move forward today, rather than backward. I will n...
Bob Blackman | 523 c579 (Link to this contribution) We have had an excellent debate. Indeed, it has shown the House at its best: the opportunity to deba...
Bob Blackman | 523 c579-80 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I would argue strongly that the Government should not...
Damian Collins | 523 c579 (Link to this contribution) I am not saying that I agree with my hon. Friend, but judges already have a power to decide whether ...
Peter Bottomley | 523 c581 (Link to this contribution) Would it not be best, therefore, to set the penalty at the cost of a bottle of House of Commons Spea...
Richard Drax | 523 c580-1 (Link to this contribution) I have heard the word ““rights”” used a lot this afternoon, but surely equal weight should be given ...
Bob Blackman | 523 c579 (Link to this contribution) The logic that flows from that is that when judges decide that someone goes to prison, that person s...
Stephen Williams | 523 c579 (Link to this contribution) Is not the solution that judges should have discretion over whether to withhold the right to vote ra...
Richard Drax | 523 c581 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is much more learned than I am, and he makes an interesting point. Finally, I shall ...
Speaker | 523 c581 (Link to this contribution) To wind up this Back Bench-led debate, I call the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab).
Dominic Raab | 523 c581 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr Speaker. I wish to pay my thanks to the Backbench Business Committee, and to pay tribu...
Chris Bryant | 523 c581 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) can remember. He was there.
Dominic Raab | 523 c582-4 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point, and of course he is absolutely right. The context of Sir O...
Robert Halfon | 523 c582 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for giving way and for his important point. Does he agree that the founders o...
Dominic Raab | 523 c582 (Link to this contribution) In the year 888, he was translating ““The Consolation of Philosophy”” from Latin and he asked a basi...
Jacob Rees-Mogg | 523 c581 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. King Alfred was a good Somerset man who did his duty to rescu...
George Hollingbery | 523 c496 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way?
David Davis | 523 c496 (Link to this contribution) I am now going to lose the House, because I do not agree with withdrawing from the regime. I will ex...
Robert Halfon | 523 c496 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my right hon. Friend on securing this important debate. Does he agree that it is rath...
David Davis | 523 c495-6 (Link to this contribution) Of course my hon. Friend is right. One of the points about laws in a democracy is that they exist, a...
David Evennett | 523 c495 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my right hon. Friend on obtaining this debate and on his excellent speech, which is d...
David Davis | 523 c495 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend takes me ahead of myself. As he well knows, the simple truth is that these are politi...
John Baron | 523 c495 (Link to this contribution) I completely agree with my right hon. Friend. The right to vote underpins our democracy, but that ri...
Andrew Murrison | 523 c494 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend think it reasonable for the European Court of Human Rights to insist on a ...
David Davis | 523 c494 (Link to this contribution) There is an old argument that hard cases make bad law, and it may well be—it sounds very likely—that...
Speaker | 523 c493 (Link to this contribution) I must inform the House that I have selected neither of the two amendments on the Order Paper.
David Davis | 523 c493-4 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move,"That this House notes the ruling of the European Court of Human Rights in Hirst v the...
Bernard Jenkin | 523 c494 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my right hon. Friend on obtaining the debate and on seizing upon the issue. I served ...
David Davis | 523 c494 (Link to this contribution) I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. Indeed, if there were an argument that giving prisoners ...
Naomi Long | 523 c494 (Link to this contribution) Recently, in Northern Ireland, a young woman was given a custodial sentence for a first offence of s...
Philip Hollobone | 523 c537-8 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful for that very helpful intervention. Those judges in the European Court should ref...
Jeremy Corbyn | 523 c538-9 (Link to this contribution) It is a bit strong to describe the European Court of Human Rights as a kangaroo court. That does not...
Philip Hollobone | 523 c537 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman takes a perfectly reasonable position. I totally disagree with him, but he is a p...
Baroness Bray of Coln | 523 c537 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that it is extraordinary that we should allow judges in Strasbourg to tell...
Philip Hollobone | 523 c537 (Link to this contribution) The legal industry has reached a new low in touting for business among convicted felons whereby lawy...
Jeremy Corbyn | 523 c537 (Link to this contribution) What does the hon. Gentleman think are the implications of challenging a European Court of Human Rig...
Philip Hollobone | 523 c536-7 (Link to this contribution) I am not a lawyer, which I think might be helpful in this debate. As we heard earlier, a lot of the ...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 523 c537 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Would not his constituents and mine be equally outraged at t...
Yasmin Qureshi | 523 c536 (Link to this contribution) If I may just finish, I should say that nobody now would think that suing a local authority or a pub...
Ian Davidson | 523 c517 (Link to this contribution) Does the Attorney-General accept that, in being a lawyer, he has the problem of over-complicating ma...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c517 (Link to this contribution) If Mr Deputy Speaker does not stop me, I shall give way.
Chris Bryant | 523 c518 (Link to this contribution) It is a delight to follow the Attorney-General, who puts me in mind of Peter the Great when he visit...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c517-8 (Link to this contribution) The object of lawyers is to take people's concepts and to try to navigate them to their correct dest...
Rehman Chishti | 523 c517 (Link to this contribution) On that very point of international obligations, Lord Hoffmann has said that"““with support of other...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c517 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who is absolutely right; I have not had time to develop the point. ...
Tom Brake | 523 c518 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Chris Bryant | 523 c518 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I would like to make a bit of progress and give way later. S...
Ian Jnr Paisley | 523 c518-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to say that choosing four years as the threshold is far too g...
Jack Straw | 523 c521 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps my hon. Friend will allow me to provide the answer to the question asked by our right hon. F...
Chris Bryant | 523 c521 (Link to this contribution) I hate the fact that there was a pause there. I give way to my right hon. Friend.
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 523 c520 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman. I seek, just once, to help him. I do not know whether he is aware that W...
Chris Bryant | 523 c520-1 (Link to this contribution) It does help me, and I think that it helps the House as well. What Britain was seeking to do was ens...
Chris Bryant | 523 c521 (Link to this contribution) Of course I will give way to the former Justice Secretary.
Denis MacShane | 523 c521 (Link to this contribution) Would my hon. Friend advance the same argument in respect of the European Court of Justice?
Chris Bryant | 523 c520 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Lady does not mind, I will make a little progress—oh, all right. The hon. Lady is very e...
Chris Bryant | 523 c520 (Link to this contribution) I understand the other point that the hon. Gentleman made, and I hope to deal with it shortly.
Chris Bryant | 523 c519 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has made his point extremely well, and I think that it has been taken by many Mem...
Jeremy Corbyn | 523 c519 (Link to this contribution) I am very puzzled by my friend's approach. If we as a country are signed up to the European conventi...
Chris Bryant | 523 c519 (Link to this contribution) It is certainly not my agenda, and I hope that I shall be able to please my hon. Friend with some of...
Tom Brake | 523 c519 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman said that it was not his party's policy to give prisoners the right to vote. Is h...
Chris Bryant | 523 c519 (Link to this contribution) No, and, if the hon. Gentleman does not mind my saying so, I think that that was a rather fatuous co...
Richard Shepherd | 523 c520 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman speaks of Maxwell Fyfe, but it was, of course, a Labour Government who signed up ...
Chris Bryant | 523 c520 (Link to this contribution) People have claimed that either a Labour or a Conservative Government signed up to the convention, b...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c526 (Link to this contribution) All I will say on the issue of compensation is that it is very difficult to know how much compensati...
Chris Bryant | 523 c525-6 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the hon. Gentleman does not mind if I do not give way, because others want to speak and ...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c525 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman knows the conventions in government—one of which is that Law Officers' advice, an...
Chris Bryant | 523 c525 (Link to this contribution) Again, I am grateful to the Attorney-General, as I agree with him; my reading of the Greens and M.T....
Dominic Grieve | 523 c524 (Link to this contribution) Yes, the European Communities Act 1972. I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that. By virtu...
Chris Bryant | 523 c524-5 (Link to this contribution) Fine; I am glad that the Attorney-General has clarified that. Can he clarify one other point, too? T...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c524 (Link to this contribution) If I may say so, I think the hon. Gentleman has taken my comments slightly out of context in the fol...
Chris Bryant | 523 c524 (Link to this contribution) That is not quite how the right hon. and learned Gentleman expressed it on the radio before the gene...
Chris Bryant | 523 c523-4 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a remarkably subtle and nuanced point, which is unusual for him. [Interruption....
Dominic Grieve | 523 c524 (Link to this contribution) I thought I had made the position clear. First, this Parliament is entirely sovereign in both Houses...
Chris Bryant | 523 c521 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the hon. Lady, but then I really must make progress.
Baroness Burt of Solihull | 523 c522 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful. A moment ago the hon. Gentleman was advancing a compelling argument, suppo...
Chris Bryant | 523 c522-3 (Link to this contribution) I have a problem with the position adopted by the Liberal Democrats since the general election. I sh...
Chris Bryant | 523 c521 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. Perhaps consideration should also be given to the role of the Committee of Ministers. It has...
Ben Gummer | 523 c528 (Link to this contribution) May I ask my hon. Friend a question as an expert on these matters? Would resiling from the 1965 agre...
Michael McCann | 523 c528-9 (Link to this contribution) I support the motion, particularly the part noting that this House should be the place where legisla...
Robert Walter | 523 c528 (Link to this contribution) Sadly, I have only 30 seconds left, so I shall not. The reform process that several hon. Members ha...
Robert Walter | 523 c528 (Link to this contribution) I am not a lawyer and would defer to the Attorney-General for a legal answer. As an hon. Member said...
Michael McCann | 523 c530 (Link to this contribution) Because we are different. Northern Europeans' view of life can be somewhat different to that of sout...
Simon Hughes | 523 c530 (Link to this contribution) If I make a speech today, I am not going to argue for a blanket right to vote for prisoners, but wha...
Michael McCann | 523 c529-30 (Link to this contribution) I am just about to go into that. I have asked them, because I wanted to test my beliefs and whether ...
Anne Main | 523 c530-1 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to be able to say that I support the motion. I am disappointed that my amendment was no...
Chris Bryant | 523 c526 (Link to this contribution) I note that the Attorney-General was referring to general elections, but of course it was stated in ...
Robert Walter | 523 c527 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the right hon. and hon. Members who have succeeded in securing this debate, but may I...
Chris Bryant | 523 c526 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Attorney-General for that. This is a Back-Bench debate and it provides an oppor...
Robert Walter | 523 c527 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted that my hon. Friend has raised that matter, because the next point that I was going t...
Baroness Coffey | 523 c527 (Link to this contribution) Is there actually a choice of candidates or is there literally the same number of candidates as ther...
Robert Walter | 523 c528 (Link to this contribution) I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention. What he describes would be a logical and prop...
Simon Hughes | 523 c528 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that the logical position were there such a right to vote, as the...
Yasmin Qureshi | 523 c535 (Link to this contribution) I will in a moment. So, local authorities—
Yasmin Qureshi | 523 c535 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not. I want to finish my speech.
Yasmin Qureshi | 523 c535 (Link to this contribution) The debate is about whether prisoners should have the right to vote, but it seems to have been turne...
Baroness Burt of Solihull | 523 c534 (Link to this contribution) I am following closely the hon. Lady's remarks about our foresisters, the suffragettes. They were im...
Speaker | 523 c535 (Link to this contribution) Order. I have to rule. Please, take your seat. Sir Peter Bottomley has made a point of order and is...
Peter Bottomley | 523 c535 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. When I might have tried in the past to go through a history ...
Naomi Long | 523 c532 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for the fact that immediately after my contribution I will have to leave the Chamber owi...
Karen Bradley | 523 c533-4 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this important debate. Before the hon. Member for...
Naomi Long | 523 c532-3 (Link to this contribution) I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his words of condolence, and I am sure that the people involved...
Anne Main | 523 c531-2 (Link to this contribution) And I respect the right hon. Gentleman for his own judgment on that matter, but we are talking today...
Simon Hughes | 523 c531 (Link to this contribution) I have listened to my constituents for 27 years. I am quite clear that the majority would be in favo...
Karen Bradley | 523 c534 (Link to this contribution) That is a good point, and I am sure that we will come back to it. Removal of the right to vote does...
Damian Collins | 523 c534 (Link to this contribution) I am following my hon. Friend's argument closely and totally support it. Does she agree that a legal...
Karen Bradley | 523 c534 (Link to this contribution) I agree wholeheartedly. It is not only particularly difficult to accept that the will of Parliament...
Lord Redwood | 523 c534 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend. Does she agree that if it is the will of this House that prisoners shou...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c516 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a very reasonable point. If she looks around other European countries, she will...
Naomi Long | 523 c516 (Link to this contribution) The Republic of Ireland provides an interesting case. Although the Government have allowed their pri...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c515-6 (Link to this contribution) That is a very good argument, and it might be helpful to me if I ever have to stand up in front of t...
Anne Main | 523 c516 (Link to this contribution) I concur that we have already set quite a high bar for getting behind bars in this country. Given th...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c516 (Link to this contribution) I have no doubt that at one time that was correct. Indeed, before 1870, large numbers of people did ...
Ben Gummer | 523 c516 (Link to this contribution) I am slightly worried by what my right hon. and learned Friend said earlier about the purpose of thi...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c516 (Link to this contribution) I would have to check that position. My understanding was—it might be incorrect—that the Irish Gover...
Chris Bryant | 523 c516 (Link to this contribution) Is it not an irony that prisoners in Britain had the vote for a while, but were unable to register a...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c516-7 (Link to this contribution) I certainly do not want to prevent my hon. Friend from debating such an important issue. He must for...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c512-3 (Link to this contribution) There is no doubt that there has been criticism of the Court, just as I have at times heard views ex...
Baroness Hoey | 523 c513 (Link to this contribution) If compensation was awarded, would it not be appropriate for the Government to decide to take it fro...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c512 (Link to this contribution) There is no mechanism to enforce—[Hon. Members: ““Ah!] My hon. Friend must listen carefully. The tru...
Richard Shepherd | 523 c512 (Link to this contribution) We of course have confidence, by and large, in our judicial system and our courts. I see this issue ...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c511-2 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right that there has been a great deal of commentary, including in some learne...
Claire O'Neill | 523 c512 (Link to this contribution) Can the Attorney-General help the House understand by what mechanism the European Court's judgment a...
Ian Jnr Paisley | 523 c511 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the Minister's helpful guidance. Will he address the point made by the right hon. Membe...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c513-4 (Link to this contribution) I must make progress; otherwise I will not be able to do what I principally came here to do. I want...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c513 (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting proposal from the hon. Lady, but, if I may say so, I would not seek to answer...
Rehman Chishti | 523 c513 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?
Andrew Turner | 523 c514 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. and learned Friend accept that we do not want a discriminatory rule on what we to...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c514 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I have understood my hon. Friend correctly. I do not think that the Court has suggested ...
Edward Leigh | 523 c515 (Link to this contribution) It seems that everyone who has spoken so far is trying to have their cake and eat it. They all say t...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c515 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend takes a very absolutist stance, although I have heard him utter such a view before. T...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c514 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that that is what my hon. Friend and many others believe the issue for debate to be. I ...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c514 (Link to this contribution) Well, it was one of the reasons it took that view.
Jeremy Corbyn | 523 c515 (Link to this contribution) Is not the fundamental issue that the European convention on human rights applies to everyone, inclu...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c515 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a perfectly reasonable point. Indeed, in some countries, the removal of the...
David Nuttall | 523 c515 (Link to this contribution) In answer to the Court's concerns, may I point out that criminals in this country choose of their ow...
Alan Johnson | 523 c500 (Link to this contribution) I support the motion in the name of my right hon. Friend and the right hon. Member for Haltemprice a...
Jack Straw | 523 c500 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with my right hon. Friend, and I thank him for his support. Like any former Home Se...
Jack Straw | 523 c501 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley), but then I must make some prog...
David Ruffley | 523 c501 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. Is not the essential problem that the European Court in S...
Bernard Jenkin | 523 c500-1 (Link to this contribution) I am listening carefully to what the right hon. Gentleman is saying about the margin of appreciation...
Jack Straw | 523 c501 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is taking us into wider territory. I happen to think that the problem is not the ...
Jack Straw | 523 c500 (Link to this contribution) I give way to the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex.
Jack Straw | 523 c500 (Link to this contribution) Of course I will, and then I will give way to the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex.
Jack Straw | 523 c499-500 (Link to this contribution) I spelled that out in The Times this morning, and I was just about to come on to that point. I am gr...
Jack Straw | 523 c500 (Link to this contribution) I will give way in a couple of seconds, but I will just make some progress. The retired Law Lord, t...
Alan Johnson | 523 c500 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Jack Straw | 523 c498-9 (Link to this contribution) I rise to support the motion in the names of the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Da...
Edward Leigh | 523 c499 (Link to this contribution) With respect to the right hon. Gentleman, is the problem not that his Government got us into this me...
David Davis | 523 c497-8 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend, who is a very close friend as well, checked the tra...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c497 (Link to this contribution) I have one advantage over my right hon. Friend, which is to have been able to go and look at the arc...
Robert Buckland | 523 c497 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way?
George Hollingbery | 523 c496 (Link to this contribution) The second half of my right hon. Friend's argument illustrates the difficulty in the motion, which s...
David Davis | 523 c496-7 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend faces this issue every time he votes on a Third Reading; if he has not noticed that y...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c497 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way?
David Davis | 523 c497 (Link to this contribution) If my right hon. and learned Friend insists, although I am very short of time.
Robert Buckland | 523 c497 (Link to this contribution) Was not the convention called the charter of fundamental rights and freedoms at that time, and have ...
David Davis | 523 c497 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right—he makes a very good point. The then Labour Government well understood this ...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c511 (Link to this contribution) It is certainly true that our international legal obligations may alter by virtue of what Parliament...
Bernard Jenkin | 523 c511 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend for giving way again. It has also been recogn...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c510 (Link to this contribution) First, I would say this to my hon. Friend. I am very respectful of the powers of this House and, hav...
Bernard Jenkin | 523 c510 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that it will be useful to the House that my right hon. and learned Friend intervenes at th...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c509-10 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and the right h...
Denis MacShane | 523 c509 (Link to this contribution) When the day comes that any right hon. or hon. Member cannot express his point of view in the House ...
Ian Davidson | 523 c509 (Link to this contribution) Is not the right hon. Gentleman, who speaks on behalf of the people of Rotherham and Berlaymont Cent...
Denis MacShane | 523 c509 (Link to this contribution) I hope that hon. Members will forgive me, but we only have five minutes each, and I do not want to o...
Denis MacShane | 523 c508-9 (Link to this contribution) Ah! Some Government Members might want to bring back beating for children in school. The ECHR outla...
Denis MacShane | 523 c508 (Link to this contribution) The ECHR is not in Brussels, as my geographically slightly ignorant hon. Friend says from a sedentar...
Denis MacShane | 523 c508 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman takes me on to my next point. In other EU countries, prisoners can vote according...
Denis MacShane | 523 c508 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way because of this five-minute limit.
Gary Streeter | 523 c507 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend shouts in my ear that Hirst fought his case on legal aid. In any case, we should now ...
Ian Jnr Paisley | 523 c508 (Link to this contribution) Is it not the case that in the European Community, six other member states have an outright ban on p...
Denis MacShane | 523 c507-8 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for South West Devon (Mr Streeter), although I was a bit ...
Gary Streeter | 523 c506-7 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way, if my hon. Friend does not mind, because I have done so twice. It is time to t...
Edward Leigh | 523 c506 (Link to this contribution) There appears to be some sloppy thinking here. I oppose incorporation into our law, but the Supreme ...
Gary Streeter | 523 c505-6 (Link to this contribution) I completely agree and I intend to address that point in a moment. We decided in this country centu...
Andrew Bridgen | 523 c505 (Link to this contribution) Is it not clear from previous speakers that the Strasbourg Court is seeking to extend its power? Is ...
Gary Streeter | 523 c505 (Link to this contribution) I support the motion. This matter is not really about whether prisoners in this country have the rig...
Gary Streeter | 523 c506 (Link to this contribution) If my hon. Friend exercises a little patience, I will give him the solution before my five minutes a...
Jack Straw | 523 c503-4 (Link to this contribution) That is true. I shall now move on. Our motion has been carefully drafted. It is respectful of the C...
Denis MacShane | 523 c503 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that, if the matter was that important to the then Opposition, they ...
Jack Straw | 523 c503 (Link to this contribution) I understand the right hon. and learned Gentleman's point, and hindsight is a wonderful thing. If I ...
Jack Straw | 523 c502 (Link to this contribution) I need to make progress, but I will give way to the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Al...
Jack Straw | 523 c502 (Link to this contribution) No, they are not, and I will come on to that. The fundamental distinction to be drawn is this: all o...
Jack Straw | 523 c502-3 (Link to this contribution) No, I have to make progress. The issue before us today—here is the heart of the matter—is by no str...
Charlie Elphicke | 523 c502 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Dominic Grieve | 523 c503 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way and for how he is articulating his powerful...
Jack Straw | 523 c501 (Link to this contribution) I was not in the House in 1965. [Hon. Members: ““Are you sure?””] I was causing trouble at universit...
Lord McCabe | 523 c542 (Link to this contribution) No, I am not surprised to hear that. I do not think that a prisoner has ever contacted me to ask for...
Chris Bryant | 523 c523 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, the Court itself has made it clear in successive judgments that a whole series of matters wo...
Ian Davidson | 523 c523 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend accept that the criteria we ought to adopt are not simply about votes for prison...
Claire O'Neill | 523 c523 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman further agree that part of the problem in defining this on a pan-European ba...
Dominic Grieve | 523 c526 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for intervening, and the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that I had to bring my remarks t...
Karen Bradley | 523 c534-5 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that I agree with the hon. Lady's argument. The fact is that the suffragettes were fig...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 523 c532 (Link to this contribution) I join the hon. Lady in those expressions of sympathy. It was a matter that I raised at business que...
John Baron | 523 c514 (Link to this contribution) The central questions are whether the interpretation of the treaty that we signed has gone beyond wh...
David Davis | 523 c495 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. It would be quite interesting to see how many prisoners h...
Tom Brake | 523 c543-4 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. He has put on record what I know to be his long-st...
Chris Bryant | 523 c521 (Link to this contribution) To be honest, I think that that is a debate for another day. I am keen not to conflate discussions a...
Chris Bryant | 523 c526 (Link to this contribution) I will, of course, give way, but I am trying to end my speech.
David Davis | 523 c498 (Link to this contribution) If colleagues will forgive me, I am almost out of time. So where do we go from here? If Parliament ...
Lord Beith | 523 c502 (Link to this contribution) Various states will from time to time think that the Court has overstepped its limits and taken too ...
Subjects
Compensation Human rights Judgements European Court of Human Rights Prisoners Voting rights
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk