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Debate on bill on Friday, 11 February 2011, in the House of Commons, led by Harriett Baldwin. The answering member was Lord Harper.

Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill

Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 2010-12. Second Reading debate agreed to on division (19 votes to 17). Bill to stand committed to a Public Bill Committee.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
523 c599-646 
Session
2010-12
Department
Cabinet Office
Legislative stage
Second reading
Procedure
Private members' bills proceedings
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill.
Wednesday, 30 June 2010
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Lord Hart of Tenby | 523 c600 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend will be aware that there will be a referendum on further powers for the Welsh Assembl...
Harriett Baldwin | 523 c599 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. As a new Member, I drew No. 7 in the privat...
Show all contributions (143)
Chris Bryant | 523 c599 (Link to this contribution) Why on earth would Mr Speaker be asked to adjudicate on whether something applied somewhere or did n...
Harriett Baldwin | 523 c600 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely important point about how difficult it is these days to identi...
Chris Bryant | 523 c600 (Link to this contribution) Essentially, but not exclusively.
Chris Bryant | 523 c600 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Lady tell us whether she voted on the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies B...
Harriett Baldwin | 523 c600 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend asks an important question, pointing out that devolution is an ongoing process. Indee...
Heather Wheeler | 523 c601 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my hon. Friend on introducing her Bill. I am sure that she, like me, receives letters...
Harriett Baldwin | 523 c601 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend asks a somewhat cheeky question. I am sympathetic to the fact that the Parliamentary ...
Harriett Baldwin | 523 c600 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making extremely important points about how legislation currently before the H...
Harriett Baldwin | 523 c602 (Link to this contribution) I fully accept that the issue has been out there and unsolved for at least 100 years. However, I thi...
Chris Bryant | 523 c602 (Link to this contribution) I think I saw a little partisanness sweep across the hon. Lady's eyes. To say that it is only the Go...
Harriett Baldwin | 523 c601-2 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for adding those supportive words from her constituents. I am sure that many ...
Malcolm Rifkind | 523 c605-6 (Link to this contribution) It was far more important than what happened in 1801, which turned out to be a blip in the constitut...
Bob Stewart | 523 c606 (Link to this contribution) I thank my right hon. and learned, and very old, Friend for giving way—[Laughter.] I mean ““old”” in...
Malcolm Rifkind | 523 c605 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin) on what she has ...
Harriett Baldwin | 523 c604-5 (Link to this contribution) My Bill has deliberately shied away from being prescriptive in that area. Our constitution has a cap...
Harriett Baldwin | 523 c604 (Link to this contribution) That is certainly an original approach, and one that, I must confess, I had not heard from any other...
Harriett Baldwin | 523 c603 (Link to this contribution) That approach is one of those things that looks fair at first sight, but the more one looks at it, t...
Christopher Chope | 523 c610 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend on his wisdom. Has he yet been approached by the Dep...
Malcolm Rifkind | 523 c610 (Link to this contribution) I suspect that my hon. Friend's intervention has guaranteed that that will not happen. In any event,...
Harriett Baldwin | 523 c609 (Link to this contribution) I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for giving way and also for sharing his enormous wisdom on ...
Malcolm Rifkind | 523 c609 (Link to this contribution) Yes, that is indeed one approach. We are always reminding ourselves that this country has a sovereig...
Chris Bryant | 523 c609 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Gentleman might like to know that Mr Bogdanor was the tutor of the Parlia...
Malcolm Rifkind | 523 c609-10 (Link to this contribution) I have no doubt that he was. Eric Anderson was the headmaster who taught Tony Blair, but I do not th...
Bob Stewart | 523 c606 (Link to this contribution) He is no longer my friend. I always used to respect him. Does he think that there will be increased ...
Malcolm Rifkind | 523 c606-7 (Link to this contribution) Such proposals are under deliberation and likely to go forward. That could mean a reduction in the b...
Malcolm Rifkind | 523 c607-9 (Link to this contribution) I return to my point that this should be seen as an evolving situation. We speak of devolution to th...
Chris Bryant | 523 c613-4 (Link to this contribution) It is true that innovation is sometimes a good thing, but I think that it would lead to confusion in...
Chris Bryant | 523 c612-3 (Link to this contribution) I think ““Sceptical”” might be the hon. Gentleman's middle name. I see he is smiling—I have managed ...
Malcolm Rifkind | 523 c614 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has been kind enough to say that he does not think that a double-majority require...
Andrew Bridgen | 523 c610 (Link to this contribution) May I drag my right hon. and learned Friend back to a point he made earlier in his eloquent speech? ...
Harriett Baldwin | 523 c611 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept, however, that the Bill stops well short of such Committees, and woul...
Chris Bryant | 523 c611-2 (Link to this contribution) Was it Socrates—I cannot remember—who said that a small book was always a bad book? Sometimes a simp...
Malcolm Rifkind | 523 c611 (Link to this contribution) I know the point my hon. Friend is making, and it has some validity, but he takes the argument too f...
Christopher Chope | 523 c644 (Link to this contribution) I think the hon. Gentleman is on the same side as I am on that, because I am saying not that this is...
Harriett Baldwin | 523 c644-5 (Link to this contribution) I thank all Members on both sides of the House for their excellent contributions today. The debate h...
Jacob Rees-Mogg | 523 c645 (Link to this contribution) I apologise if I implied that I thought the Bill was pointless. I was concerned that if it did not l...
Harriett Baldwin | 523 c645-6 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend very much for that clarification. In an elegant speech, the Minister made sim...
Ian Jnr Paisley | 523 c644 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman not accept, however, that he cannot have both sides of the argument? He cann...
Chris Bryant | 523 c619 (Link to this contribution) That was going to be my last sentence, but I will allow the hon. Gentleman to intervene.
Chris Bryant | 523 c618-9 (Link to this contribution) As I have said, legislation is about not just what it does, but the declaratory effect that it has. ...
Harriett Baldwin | 523 c618 (Link to this contribution) Let me reiterate once again that none of the concerns the hon. Gentleman is raising apply to the Bil...
Chris Bryant | 523 c618 (Link to this contribution) Well, not all 37 shires had representation, and they certainly did not have that as of right. I am p...
Jacob Rees-Mogg | 523 c618 (Link to this contribution) The knights of the shires came much earlier than that—they come from the reign of Richard I. That is...
Chris Bryant | 523 c618 (Link to this contribution) Simon de Montfort invited four knights from each of the shires and six from Yorkshire in 1258 to pre...
Jacob Rees-Mogg | 523 c618 (Link to this contribution) The right of shires to send people for address of grievance pre-dates Simon de Montfort. It is the b...
Chris Bryant | 523 c618 (Link to this contribution) I thought that going back to the 13th century might stimulate the hon. Gentleman.
Damian Hinds | 523 c619 (Link to this contribution) Have any of these adverse effects arisen as a result of the current statement of territorial extent?...
Iain Stewart | 523 c620-1 (Link to this contribution) I was about to give an example of why it is still extremely valid to address the West Lothian questi...
Damian Hinds | 523 c619 (Link to this contribution) I do not know what the hon. Gentleman means by ““declaration”” as I am relatively new to all this, b...
Chris Bryant | 523 c619 (Link to this contribution) Which specific declaration is the hon. Gentleman referring to?
Iain Stewart | 523 c619-20 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin) on introducing t...
Christopher Chope | 523 c621 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making an excellent point. Will he also consider what might happen in this review ...
Iain Stewart | 523 c621-3 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend raises an intriguing possibility. I hope that the commission does report, but we cann...
Iain Stewart | 523 c623 (Link to this contribution) I will not comment on the previous Government's approach to legislation.
Chris Bryant | 523 c623 (Link to this contribution) One should assume that Governments will be unscrupulous. Hon. Members are always scrupulous, but Gov...
Iain Stewart | 523 c623 (Link to this contribution) I would answer that by saying that a Government who do not command the majority in all parts of the ...
Chris Bryant | 523 c623 (Link to this contribution) But is the difficulty not that, for the most part, Governments introduce legislation in our system a...
Iain Stewart | 523 c623 (Link to this contribution) I beg to differ. As I have said, there is an opportunity cost to not addressing the issue. My conte...
Iain Stewart | 523 c624 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point. Sadly, I do not have the statistics, but I believe that my ...
Damian Hinds | 523 c624-5 (Link to this contribution) I want to speak briefly in support of my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Ba...
Andrew Bridgen | 523 c624 (Link to this contribution) Once again, the hon. Gentleman comments from a sedentary position. The previous Government did not h...
Chris Bryant | 523 c625 (Link to this contribution) That has not always been my experience of the Table Office, which is often directional and forceful ...
Chris Bryant | 523 c626 (Link to this contribution) I keep on thinking up more reasons why I dislike that double mandate, so I will suggest another one:...
Bob Stewart | 523 c626 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend—well, not my friend, but he could be, if he is nicer. I thank the hon. Gentle...
Bob Stewart | 523 c626 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for, once again, being so perceptive as to pick a few little holes. I acc...
Chris Bryant | 523 c626 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman started the quotation but did not finish it:"““Oh! what a tangled web we weave""W...
Martin Vickers | 523 c627-8 (Link to this contribution) That is why I used only the first half of the quotation. I would not dream of suggesting anything su...
Jacob Rees-Mogg | 523 c628-9 (Link to this contribution) The Bill promoted by my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin) is tremend...
Iain Stewart | 523 c629-30 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes my point for me, as does my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensin...
Jacob Rees-Mogg | 523 c630 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important and valid point. The West Lothian question is serious, but the ans...
Chris Bryant | 523 c631 (Link to this contribution) The French very regularly confuse ““anglais”” with ““britannique””.
Jacob Rees-Mogg | 523 c631-2 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for that illuminating point. I always thought that the Auld Alliance mean...
Harriett Baldwin | 523 c630 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for giving such an eloquent speech on some of the issues surrounding legislat...
Jacob Rees-Mogg | 523 c630-1 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for making that point, but I was rather hoping she would not, because there i...
Ian Jnr Paisley | 523 c634 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that intervention. I got at least three forest trees of letters through my door from pe...
Chris Bryant | 523 c633 (Link to this contribution) Has the hon. Gentleman had the following experience, as I have had in the past couple of weeks? As a...
Ian Jnr Paisley | 523 c633 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that the view is necessary commonly held, but we should caution ourselves. When we sp...
Iain Stewart | 523 c633 (Link to this contribution) I reassure the hon. Gentleman that many of us who passionately believe that we have to address the W...
Ian Jnr Paisley | 523 c632-3 (Link to this contribution) It is always a pleasure to follow the clever—and highly witty, at times—speeches made by the hon. Me...
Lord Harper | 523 c637 (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting question. This is one of the key differences—not the only one—between me and ...
Harriett Baldwin | 523 c634 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for coming along to participate in the debate, because his perspective is...
Ian Jnr Paisley | 523 c634-5 (Link to this contribution) The beauty of an unwritten constitution is flexibility. As Burke said, we are here to give to the pe...
Lord Harper | 523 c635-7 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin), my constituency...
Lord Harper | 523 c637-8 (Link to this contribution) If my hon. Friend can wait just a little longer, I will come to that important point. My hon. Frien...
Christopher Chope | 523 c637 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) is champing at the ...
Lord Harper | 523 c638 (Link to this contribution) In view of what I think the hon. Member for Rhondda was saying about the way in which the Committee ...
Ian Jnr Paisley | 523 c638 (Link to this contribution) I am slightly confused. Did the hon. Member for Rhondda mean that it was a grand Standing Committee ...
Lord Harper | 523 c637 (Link to this contribution) I have just looked at the expression on you face, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I think that I am going ...
Chris Bryant | 523 c637 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I am not breaking a private confidence when I say that Vernon Bogdanor told me that he t...
Speaker | 523 c638 (Link to this contribution) Order. I have let this run a little bit, but I think that we should now return to the Bill. This is ...
Chris Bryant | 523 c638 (Link to this contribution) Well, this is a grand debate, isn't it? The truth is that, all too often, the Welsh Grand Committee ...
Lord Harper | 523 c640 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that clarification. It comes back to the comments of my hon. Fri...
Harriett Baldwin | 523 c640 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his perceptive comments about what I have tried to avoid in drafting the Bi...
Lord Harper | 523 c638-40 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker. I detected that the House probably felt that that part of the d...
Lord Harper | 523 c643 (Link to this contribution) I know that my hon. Friend is not perhaps the most enthusiastic supporter of the coalition Governmen...
Christopher Chope | 523 c641-3 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to speak in the debate, but I must say that I am disappointed that the Minister w...
Lord Harper | 523 c640-1 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a good point about the fact that, even when something is required, it is no...
Christopher Chope | 523 c643 (Link to this contribution) I am generous by nature but I would be even more generous if my hon. Friend had explained why it has...
Jacob Rees-Mogg | 523 c643 (Link to this contribution) May I come to the support of the Minister, and on a constitutional issue, which may surprise him? Ou...
Christopher Chope | 523 c643-4 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I think that these deliberations should be conducted by the comm...
Chris Bryant | 523 c614 (Link to this contribution) I shall deal later with an issue that relates directly to the point of the Bill, and I think that th...
Harriett Baldwin | 523 c614 (Link to this contribution) Can the hon. Gentleman give me an example of a money Bill that might affect only England? I am not s...
Chris Bryant | 523 c614-5 (Link to this contribution) There are money Bills attached to many pieces of legislation. There will be money Bills in relation ...
Andrea Leadsom | 523 c615 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Chris Bryant | 523 c615 (Link to this contribution) I will, but I shall want to return to my specific argument.
Andrea Leadsom | 523 c615 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman. Given that the whole purpose of the Bill is to make clearer in legislati...
Chris Bryant | 523 c615 (Link to this contribution) No, it is an argument against it. I remember clearly the rows that took place in both the Chamber an...
Harriett Baldwin | 523 c615 (Link to this contribution) With the greatest respect, surely in such circumstances it would be necessary only to say, ““This Bi...
Chris Bryant | 523 c615-6 (Link to this contribution) But who gets to decide the interpretation of what applies and what does not apply? That is the probl...
Harriett Baldwin | 523 c616 (Link to this contribution) With respect, the hon. Gentleman is missing the whole point. Obviously, legislation will have differ...
Andrea Leadsom | 523 c616 (Link to this contribution) People in the country do not want to see Scottish MPs voting as Ministers on English-only legislatio...
Chris Bryant | 523 c616 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Lady has just let the cat out of the bag. That is the whole point of her argum...
Chris Bryant | 523 c616 (Link to this contribution) No, I honestly think that the hon. Lady is completely naive in relation to this matter. She said at ...
Andrea Leadsom | 523 c617 (Link to this contribution) This is obviously my hon. Friend's Bill. She is not proposing any such legislation. She is merely pr...
Speaker | 523 c617 (Link to this contribution) Order. May I gently point out that I have been accused of many things but not of being a Welsh Membe...
Andrea Leadsom | 523 c616 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman asking me or my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldw...
Chris Bryant | 523 c617 (Link to this contribution) Sorry, I am slightly cross-eyed. I meant the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom)...
Chris Bryant | 523 c617-8 (Link to this contribution) I would like to see the issue addressed in different ways—as it has been addressed in other countrie...
Chris Bryant | 523 c617 (Link to this contribution) Although I am sure that you would not mind, Mr Speaker. It is not a libel. It is not like being call...
Harriett Baldwin | 523 c617 (Link to this contribution) As I said earlier, it is because of that belief that it is important that we have clarity in our leg...
Harriett Baldwin | 523 c599-600 (Link to this contribution) That is an extremely important question. Mr Speaker has the ability, under Standing Order No. 97, to...
Christopher Chope | 523 c600-1 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my hon. Friend on introducing this Bill. She describes the issue as complex. Does she...
Andrea Leadsom | 523 c602 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend not agree that at least that solution would appear to be fair? Many voters in th...
Jacob Rees-Mogg | 523 c604 (Link to this contribution) I am not quite sure how we get from my hon. Friend's Bill to the legislative programme that she is s...
Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 523 c607 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that we have institutionalised a sense of resentment and...
Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 523 c612 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman seriously suggesting that, with constituencies in Scotland and Wales having si...
Chris Bryant | 523 c619 (Link to this contribution) Such declarations do not specify whether a Bill is exclusively English, Welsh or Northern Irish, or ...
Andrew Bridgen | 523 c624 (Link to this contribution) The previous Government may well have had the majority of seats in England, but they did not have th...
Bob Stewart | 523 c625 (Link to this contribution) Surely this is all about fairness for constituents who have a Member of Parliament. It is also about...
Martin Vickers | 523 c626 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin) on presenting th...
Chris Bryant | 523 c640 (Link to this contribution) A clear example is to be found in the explanatory notes to the next Bill that we will consider. In r...
Andrew Bridgen | 523 c603 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for indulging me. I wonder whether she would be willing to listen to my perha...
Chris Bryant | 523 c611 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the contribution of the hon. Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin), who has no...
Subjects
Devolved matters Devolution Legislative process Jurisdiction Legislation England Northern Ireland Northern Ireland Assembly National Assembly for Wales Scotland Wales Scottish Parliament West Lothian question English votes for English laws
Legislation
Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 2010-12
Link
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