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Backbench debate on Thursday, 15 December 2011, in the House of Commons, led by Adam Afriyie. The answering member was Lord Harper.

Parliamentary Standards Act 2009

Unallotted backbench debate (part one). Main question, as amended, agreed to.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
537 c944-78 
Session
2010-12
Department
Cabinet Office
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Adam Afriyie | 537 c968 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to disappoint the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell). The point is that this is not...
Lord Harper | 537 c968 (Link to this contribution) I will take one more intervention on this before moving on. I will therefore take it from the Chairm...
Show all contributions (137)
Bob Russell | 537 c968 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister saying that IPSA has already responded to the report?
Lord Harper | 537 c968 (Link to this contribution) It is one of the conclusions of the report. I will now move on to the three recommendations. Most of...
Bob Russell | 537 c968 (Link to this contribution) I understood the Minister to say that the Government had not had time to consider this report, yet I...
Lord Harper | 537 c968 (Link to this contribution) Yes, IPSA put out a press notice, which is on its website for everyone to see. It has confirmed—[Int...
Lord Harper | 537 c968-9 (Link to this contribution) No, IPSA has not considered the report. IPSA has said that it will consider the Committee's recommen...
Lord Harper | 537 c969 (Link to this contribution) I see the right hon. Gentleman nodding to that. Or it is a substantial change that would alter signi...
Nick Raynsford | 537 c969-70 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister accept the point that is articulated in paragraphs 8 to 13 of the report? There is...
Wayne David | 537 c974-5 (Link to this contribution) Many of us remember only too well the collective trauma experienced by the House during the previous...
Lord Mann | 537 c975 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for robustly supporting the coalition position in this debate, which I, too, ...
Wayne David | 537 c975-6 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a good point, which underlines the point that IPSA should always effectively be...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c976 (Link to this contribution) I do not think there is any disagreement, actually. The recommendation is merely that the legislatio...
Wayne David | 537 c976-7 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but it still worries me that we are talking about at least an a...
Bob Russell | 537 c977 (Link to this contribution) Would the hon. Gentleman like to follow that argument through? Had it not been for the determination...
Wayne David | 537 c977-8 (Link to this contribution) I certainly endorse that point. The House has been mature in its approach to the issue and, as I mad...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c978 (Link to this contribution) I have enjoyed hearing the constructive contributions to the debate. One thing that has been emphasi...
Lord Harper | 537 c974 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to you, Madam Deputy Speaker. If the recommendation simply stated that the House shou...
Speaker | 537 c974 (Link to this contribution) Order. A lot of private conversations are going on in the Chamber. It is very distracting, particula...
Lord Harper | 537 c973-4 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to agree with my hon. Friend that we have explained the matter enough to the House. I hav...
Tom Harris | 537 c974 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the Minister for intervening now, but it took me some time to find the reference to h...
Lord Harper | 537 c973 (Link to this contribution) I know that my hon. Friend has set out clearly what he intended by the report, but his motion asks t...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c973 (Link to this contribution) I will leave the Minister alone from hereon in because the point has been well made. Let us be clear...
Lord Harper | 537 c971-3 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman has put it very well. I cannot really add anything to what he has said. A ...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c973 (Link to this contribution) I understand my hon. Friend's point, but both I and other members of the Committee have made it abso...
Lord Harper | 537 c971 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the right hon. Gentleman says, but I have made it clear that IPSA has a legal duty to ca...
Andrew Smith | 537 c971 (Link to this contribution) In common-sense terms, does it not come down to the question of whether IPSA is seen as working for ...
Lord Harper | 537 c971 (Link to this contribution) The Committee has done an excellent job in putting together what I acknowledge to be some very good ...
Alison Seabeck | 537 c971 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is making an important point, but it is slightly at odds with his suggestion at the beg...
Nick Raynsford | 537 c971 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for giving way again. He is being very generous. May I return him to the questi...
Lord Harper | 537 c970 (Link to this contribution) Given that the hon. Gentleman's previous remark was uncalled for, I will not give way to him any fur...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c970 (Link to this contribution) What is clear from the statement in the report, and clear overall, is that the purpose of creating t...
Lord Harper | 537 c970 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that the two are mutually exclusive. Indeed, I would argue that if Members are to be ...
Lord Harper | 537 c970 (Link to this contribution) That was a helpful intervention. Let me pick it up as I move on to my second thought on this matter....
Lord Harper | 537 c970 (Link to this contribution) Let me just finish what I am saying. These are not my words; they are the words of the Committee.
Andrew Smith | 537 c967 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support the line of argument that the Minister is advancing. Quite apart from the unaccep...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c966-7 (Link to this contribution) I shall be polite in this intervention, but frankly, my hon. Friend has had to work very hard to fin...
Lord Harper | 537 c967 (Link to this contribution) I want time to set out our recommendations, but the report states:"““Some of our recommendations req...
Lord Harper | 537 c966 (Link to this contribution) I have said that I will take my hon. Friend's intervention if I am allowed to finish my point. We c...
Guto Bebb | 537 c962-3 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful. It came from various colleagues, and indeed from some Parliamentary Private Secretari...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c963 (Link to this contribution) I respect the work that my hon. Friend has done with the Committee. I have already pointed out my sl...
Guto Bebb | 537 c963 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the intervention and delighted that the amendment will make it easier for Members ...
Peter Bone | 537 c964 (Link to this contribution) I entirely understand the position of the right hon. Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith), but I really...
Andrew Smith | 537 c963 (Link to this contribution) To clarify what the hon. Gentleman's amendment means, is not the crucial difference that the origina...
Guto Bebb | 537 c964 (Link to this contribution) I enjoy the hon. Gentleman's contributions, but I think I have already responded to that point fairl...
Peter Bone | 537 c964 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is being exceptionally generous in giving way. Will he tell the House when the wordin...
Guto Bebb | 537 c964 (Link to this contribution) I have attempted to explain my reasoning. I believe that there are several recommendations in the re...
Bob Russell | 537 c964 (Link to this contribution) Pursuant to my previous point and the one made by the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), I am...
Guto Bebb | 537 c964 (Link to this contribution) Again, I am very grateful to my hon. Friend. In reality, when Members table amendments they do so in...
Lord Harper | 537 c964-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to be called at this stage of the debate, but it is worth saying at the start that bec...
Lord Harper | 537 c965 (Link to this contribution) May I make a little progress, because I need to set out the Government's concerns about the report? ...
Bob Russell | 537 c965 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. He is a Minister for whom I have the utmost respect, and I wo...
Lord Harper | 537 c965-6 (Link to this contribution) I have not commented on the amendment yet. It is a fact that most of the report's recommendations ar...
Cathy Jamieson | 537 c966 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister moves on, will the Minister explain to the House exactly which recommendations h...
Lord Harper | 537 c966 (Link to this contribution) I will. In summary, the recommendations that trespass on IPSA's independence are recommendations 2, ...
Lord Harper | 537 c966 (Link to this contribution) Hang on. Let me finish this point and I will give way. Paragraph 204 of the report acknowledges that...
Bob Russell | 537 c947 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend know of any other profession or occupation—perhaps the world of journalism? —whe...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c947 (Link to this contribution) That is another point very well made. I hope that the direction of travel in the recommendations wil...
Peter Bottomley | 537 c946-7 (Link to this contribution) I echo the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) about anything that we sa...
Cathy Jamieson | 537 c946 (Link to this contribution) As a member of the Committee, I add my thanks to the hon. Gentleman for all the work that he has don...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c946 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady makes the point very well. Those who actually read the report will see that that is ex...
Andrew Smith | 537 c946 (Link to this contribution) What would the hon. Gentleman say to the argument that the public might well see it as rather self-s...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c946 (Link to this contribution) That is absolutely right. The right hon. Gentleman could have been a member of the Committee, becaus...
Bob Russell | 537 c946 (Link to this contribution) I want to put on record my appreciation of the front-line staff of IPSA, who have to work a system t...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c946 (Link to this contribution) That is a fascinating statistic. We had a session in which we looked in particular at value for mone...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c951 (Link to this contribution) Again, that is a perfect observation. In the survey that was conducted, MPs were asked on how many o...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c949-50 (Link to this contribution) Indeed he should. The report contains two pretty uncontroversial recommendations, and again this br...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c950 (Link to this contribution) The amendment to the motion makes that point and proposes that IPSA should address the report in its...
Alison Seabeck | 537 c950 (Link to this contribution) Is not part of the problem, and part of the frustration that Members of the House feel with IPSA, th...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c950 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol West (Stephen Williams) was incredibly helpful during the Comm...
Alison Seabeck | 537 c950 (Link to this contribution) I have a fairly straightforward question. Does the hon. Gentleman expect Sir Ian Kennedy and IPSA to...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c949 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes his point well. It is not in the report, but I accept it. To return to the...
Barry Sheerman | 537 c949 (Link to this contribution) The trouble is that the three main parties in the House tend to be represented by the Whips, whose v...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c949 (Link to this contribution) That is another point well made. I will tackle the point made by the hon. Member for Huddersfield (M...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c947-8 (Link to this contribution) It is incredibly unlikely. As I say, 93% are subsidising their work to some degree—some, about one i...
Jo Swinson | 537 c948 (Link to this contribution) There are many helpful suggestions in the report, not only on how IPSA can pursue matters in a most ...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c948 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Lady. The whole thrust of the report was to make sure that there is value for money...
Barry Sheerman | 537 c948 (Link to this contribution) Many of us very much admire the hon. Gentleman's work in this field. We all feel very exposed. We al...
Edward Leigh | 537 c948 (Link to this contribution) I chair the liaison committee with IPSA, which includes Members from all parties, and know that it c...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c948 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention and for his work on the Committee. I think that together...
Lord Tyrie | 537 c948-9 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the key message that must come out of today's debate and go to the Fr...
Edward Leigh | 537 c954 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith) can be reassured because the House cannot order IPS...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c954 (Link to this contribution) We can quibble about one word in a report that is 100 pages long. I am telling hon. Members on behal...
Andrew Smith | 537 c954 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who is being generous in giving way. I take him back to recomme...
Jim Sheridan | 537 c955 (Link to this contribution) Are there any recommendations in the report about the principles afforded to IPSA? Is it subject to ...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c955 (Link to this contribution) We have all heard my hon. Friend's comments.
Peter Bone | 537 c955 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making an extraordinarily powerful and well reasoned case. But is it not a fact th...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c955 (Link to this contribution) I will give way twice more, and then I will definitely stop. I give way first to my hon. Friend.
Adam Afriyie | 537 c954 (Link to this contribution) I draw hon. Members' eyes back to the first recommendation—the first thing that we are insisting on ...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c951 (Link to this contribution) That point is reflected in recommendation 8, in which the Committee states that there should a ““cle...
Bob Russell | 537 c951 (Link to this contribution) ““Expenses”” is the wrong word; those costs are allowances for us to do our job. My staff salaries a...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c952-3 (Link to this contribution) The report also makes that recommendation, urging IPSA to continue in that direction and, as far as ...
Daniel Kawczynski | 537 c952 (Link to this contribution) I very much hope that as part of my hon. Friend's recommendations to IPSA he challenges it also to i...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c953-4 (Link to this contribution) I suspect that we have some of those problems in the House as well. On recommendation 18, in the We...
Peter Bottomley | 537 c953 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend explain recommendation 18, which states that MPs should have no increase in pay ...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c951-2 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Lady for her view, and I can understand the shudder that would go up the spine if i...
Jo Swinson | 537 c951 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman's remarks on the separation of the administration and regulation of expenses are ...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c952 (Link to this contribution) That point is echoed and very well made as a recommendation in the report. IPSA is taking some steps...
David Winnick | 537 c952 (Link to this contribution) May I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for his excellent work in this regard but, at the same time,...
Bob Russell | 537 c958 (Link to this contribution) I am sure the media have not deliberately gone out of their way to misrepresent the report and thus ...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c960 (Link to this contribution) It struck us in the evidence sessions that even the chairman of IPSA acknowledged that he did not qu...
Nick Raynsford | 537 c960 (Link to this contribution) If my hon. Friend reads the transcripts of the evidence, he will see that the Committee took evidenc...
David Winnick | 537 c959 (Link to this contribution) Like the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell), I intervened when the Chair of the Select Committ...
Nick Raynsford | 537 c958-9 (Link to this contribution) I note, but I cannot say I am persuaded, by the hon. Gentleman's touching faith in the integrity and...
Guto Bebb | 537 c962 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment (a), to leave out from ““House”” to end and add"““thanks the Members' Expens...
Nick Raynsford | 537 c961-2 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a very persuasive point. I hope that all Members, including those who are nervo...
Cathy Jamieson | 537 c961 (Link to this contribution) Like my right hon. Friend and as a member of the Committee, I was not persuaded that we should move ...
Nick Raynsford | 537 c960-1 (Link to this contribution) I agree very much with the hon. Gentleman. It is clear from the evidence that there is a lack of cla...
Bob Russell | 537 c962 (Link to this contribution) Would my hon. Friend like to inform the House whence that information came?
Nick Raynsford | 537 c955 (Link to this contribution) As almost all of us are recipients of expenses, I assume that it is appropriate to make a declaratio...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c955 (Link to this contribution) We did not make any recommendations in that field; I simply observe that, given how things are worde...
Nick Raynsford | 537 c956 (Link to this contribution) I assure my hon. Friend that I do not make a profit. I thank the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afri...
Nick Raynsford | 537 c957 (Link to this contribution) I was going to come to this point later, but I entirely concur with the hon. Gentleman's view that t...
Nick Raynsford | 537 c957-8 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a telling point and countless examples have been brought to those of us who ser...
Michael Connarty | 537 c957 (Link to this contribution) On whether the system, which is costing that amount of money, is effective, IPSA cannot process a di...
Nick Raynsford | 537 c958 (Link to this contribution) I agree wholeheartedly. We have a responsibility to speak out openly and properly about the failings...
Alison Seabeck | 537 c958 (Link to this contribution) I also declare an interest. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the taxpayer will not thank us in t...
Daniel Kawczynski | 537 c945 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has thanked various people. Will he accept my thanks and those of many colleagues for...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c944-5 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move,"That this House approves the recommendations of the First Report from the Members' Ex...
Mark Pritchard | 537 c945 (Link to this contribution) I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend on the hard work that he and his Committee have done over the pa...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c945 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend. If I could, I would probably flush up at this moment, but luckily hon. Membe...
Speaker | 537 c944 (Link to this contribution) It may be for the convenience of the House to know that the Backbench Business Committee has recomme...
Tom Harris | 537 c967 (Link to this contribution) I am not following the Minister's argument. Is he saying that the 2009 Act, alone among every Act ov...
Lord Harper | 537 c967-8 (Link to this contribution) No, it is not the Government's position and it is not what I said. If we were simply transmitting th...
Guto Bebb | 537 c963 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend and accept his comments, but that has not been my argument. My argum...
Adam Afriyie | 537 c945 (Link to this contribution) That is one of the key issues that we looked at. If Members go through the recommendations—I will ru...
Stephen Williams | 537 c950 (Link to this contribution) As a member of the Committee, I would like to put on the record my thanks to my hon. Friend for his ...
Peter Bottomley | 537 c956-7 (Link to this contribution) On dissatisfaction, I should say that the public interest is illustrated in paragraph 80, page 27, w...
Lord Harper | 537 c967 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the right hon. Gentleman's point, which is an important one. The House set up a proper wa...
Subjects
Accountability Cost effectiveness Costs Allowances Pay Members Standards Regulation Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority Committee on Members' Expenses
Legislation
Parliamentary Standards Act 2009
Link
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