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Debate on Wednesday, 8 February 2012, in the House of Commons, led by Grant Shapps. The answering member was Hilary Benn.

Local Government Finance

Referendums Relating to Council Tax Increases (Principles) (England) Report 2012-13 and the Local Government Finance Report (England) 2012-13. Debate on motions to approve. First report agreed on question. Second report agreed on division (292 to 213).

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
540 c361-412 
Session
2010-12
Department
Department for Communities and Local Government
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Deposited Paper DEP2012-0267
Thursday, 9 February 2012
Deposited papers
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Robert Neill | 540 c406-7 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the hon. Gentleman will do me the courtesy of letting me answer his party's spokesman. ...
Show all contributions (170)
Alun Michael | 540 c411 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. In his reply to me this afternoon, the Prime Minister cla...
Speaker | 540 c411-2 (Link to this contribution) I have had no such notification. As an experienced Member of this House, the right hon. Gentleman wi...
Brandon Lewis | 540 c405 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for giving way. Does he agree that one of the figures that is most important to...
Robert Neill | 540 c405-6 (Link to this contribution) It is ironic that we heard very little about whether the Opposition will encourage Labour councils t...
Robert Neill | 540 c406 (Link to this contribution) I have given way twice already and made it clear that I will not do so again. I am sorry, but I do n...
Robert Neill | 540 c405 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way once and once only, to the right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth).
George Howarth | 540 c405 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. He is making a speech about local government finance. Has he noticed ...
Helen Jones | 540 c403-4 (Link to this contribution) We believe that all councils should publish their expenditure and we would like the DCLG to set an e...
Robert Neill | 540 c404-5 (Link to this contribution) The debate has at times been a little like my experience in local government since I was first elect...
Helen Jones | 540 c403 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a good point, and I shall be dealing with that matter in a moment. The Governme...
Grant Shapps | 540 c403 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Lady repeat something we heard for the first time in the Chamber a couple of hours ago...
Andrew Gwynne | 540 c403 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for mentioning ““Tameside Works First””, the initiative of my local ...
Robert Neill | 540 c405 (Link to this contribution) I will give way just once, then I must make progress.
Robert Neill | 540 c405 (Link to this contribution) Since the settlement is set out in reams of paper, I need not trouble the right hon. Gentleman too m...
David Ward | 540 c399 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mike Hancock | 540 c399 (Link to this contribution) Yes, but my hon. Friend must be very quick.
David Ward | 540 c399 (Link to this contribution) I will be. My hon. Friend has mentioned percentages. I hope he agrees that the real issue is gearin...
Mike Hancock | 540 c399 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend's point is well made, but it is falling on deaf ears. It has been made time and time ...
George Howarth | 540 c399-400 (Link to this contribution) It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Portsmouth South (Mr Hancock). I think I said t...
Mike Hancock | 540 c401 (Link to this contribution) I was confused when that list was being read out. Was the right hon. Gentleman as confused as I was ...
George Howarth | 540 c401 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that, but the point is that unless there is a rigorous, prop...
Helen Jones | 540 c401-2 (Link to this contribution) We have heard numerous examples of the damage being inflicted on local communities by the Government...
Helen Jones | 540 c402-3 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend will have to forgive me for not giving way, but we are short on time. Tell that to t...
Annette Brooke | 540 c391-2 (Link to this contribution) I will not, because I want to make it clear that it is not correct to switch from numbers to percent...
Lord Beamish | 540 c395-6 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) said that all councils start on the ...
Steve Rotheram | 540 c396 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend will be aware that Liverpool city council is one of the highest ranking in the indice...
Mary Glindon | 540 c392-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall concentrate on what the local government settlement means for my council. I have advised my ...
Justin Tomlinson | 540 c393-5 (Link to this contribution) I was not intending to speak in this debate, but many hon. Members have highlighted the importance o...
Lord Beamish | 540 c397-8 (Link to this contribution) Exactly. We hear a lot of this nonsense and the soundbite that we are all in it together but we are ...
Speaker | 540 c398 (Link to this contribution) Order. May I just point out that the Front-Bench winding-up speeches will begin at 6.27 pm, so we ha...
Lord Beamish | 540 c396-7 (Link to this contribution) Well, it will not make it fairer; it will make it more unfair. The Secretary of State knows exactly ...
Derek Twigg | 540 c397 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making a very good speech. Does he recall the Chancellor saying:"““We are all in t...
Mike Hancock | 540 c398-9 (Link to this contribution) I will try to take your lead and be as gracious and courteous as you are, Mr Speaker. Once again, I...
Derek Twigg | 540 c377 (Link to this contribution) May I make a point about the impact of front-line cuts on people? In Halton, adaptations for people ...
Hilary Benn | 540 c377 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point, and has anticipated what I am about to say about the i...
Andrew Gwynne | 540 c377 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is right to highlight the role of the Liberal Democrats. May I take him to the ...
Hilary Benn | 540 c375 (Link to this contribution) Of course there is a difference because there is much greater deprivation in Hackney than in Richmon...
Brandon Lewis | 540 c375 (Link to this contribution) Is it not important to make sure we understand the starting point for the councils the right hon. Ge...
Hilary Benn | 540 c376 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. It is quite shocking that the Government have done this knowing what it wil...
Andrew Gwynne | 540 c375-6 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is right to highlight the real impact of these cuts in areas such as the north-...
Hilary Benn | 540 c376 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman obviously did not listen carefully enough to the point I made. If he has no...
Lord Redwood | 540 c376 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman said that East Dorset and Basingstoke will gain money, but those districts ...
Hilary Benn | 540 c376-7 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. Certainly the West Yorkshire fire service does an extremely good job in mee...
Lord Watts | 540 c376 (Link to this contribution) Is my right hon. Friend aware that the most efficient fire authorities are in the metropolitan areas...
Mike Hancock | 540 c381 (Link to this contribution) Once again, I declare my interest as a member of local government. I share the right hon. Gentleman'...
Clive Betts | 540 c379 (Link to this contribution) Is it not incredible that this nest egg of money has been trailed before councils, which are to put ...
Hilary Benn | 540 c379-80 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and it will be interesting to see in the end how many councils c...
Bill Esterson | 540 c378 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend talks about the damage being done and the reality on the ground, and that is pr...
Hilary Benn | 540 c378 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes that point very forcefully. I wonder whether Hammersmith and Fulham will still ...
Andy Slaughter | 540 c378 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend mentioned Sure Start. Conservative Hammersmith and Fulham council has cut the S...
Hilary Benn | 540 c378 (Link to this contribution) Sadly, when it comes to the Liberal Democrats, not much has changed at all. That is a pattern of beh...
Hilary Benn | 540 c379 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an extremely powerful point about the impact of all this on the overall economy...
Bill Esterson | 540 c379 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that correction. Sefton also faces the impact of the associated job losses ...
Lord Watts | 540 c372 (Link to this contribution) The Minister wants to ensure that everyone understands the ramifications of his proposal, so will he...
Grant Shapps | 540 c372 (Link to this contribution) I am keen for other Members to get in, but before he explodes, I will give way one last time to the ...
Helen Jones | 540 c371 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister admit that 80% of economic development is down not to what local authorities do bu...
Grant Shapps | 540 c371 (Link to this contribution) This measure will ensure that local authorities have a stake in the economic well-being of people in...
Grant Shapps | 540 c371-2 (Link to this contribution) First, I think that 80% of business development comes from businesses, not from government, whether ...
Heidi Alexander | 540 c371 (Link to this contribution) The Minister makes great play of the council tax freeze, but does he accept that the Government's 10...
George Howarth | 540 c375 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend mentioned Knowsley a moment ago when he was comparing figures. Does he agree th...
Hilary Benn | 540 c375 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend argues the case for his constituents with great force and vigour, and he is abs...
Hilary Benn | 540 c374-5 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and he anticipates some of the figures I am going to give to the...
Lord Watts | 540 c374 (Link to this contribution) Government Members suggest that just one or two deprived councils are being hit the hardest, but the...
Hilary Benn | 540 c374 (Link to this contribution) My response to the right hon. Gentleman is that we would not cut so far and so fast, as he knows. We...
Lord Redwood | 540 c374 (Link to this contribution) We are discussing £72 billion in aggregate Exchequer finance for this year and next year, which is £...
Hilary Benn | 540 c373-4 (Link to this contribution) I welcome this opportunity to debate local government finance. I am conscious that we are entering a...
Grant Shapps | 540 c373 (Link to this contribution) I hope all hon. Members would agree that I have been more than generous with interventions. I am kee...
John Healey | 540 c373 (Link to this contribution) On the new system that will be introduced under the Local Government Finance Bill, will the Minister...
Clive Betts | 540 c388 (Link to this contribution) Sheffield city council is making cuts of 11% in its budget this year, and that is substantially more...
Clive Betts | 540 c388 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to my hon. Friend, but then I must make progress.
Clive Betts | 540 c388 (Link to this contribution) I agree with that point without in any way saying that Sheffield city council spends a great deal of...
Lord Beamish | 540 c388 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that it is nonsense to suggest, as the Minister did, that somehow an organ...
Clive Betts | 540 c388-90 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the Minister will provide some figures in due course. We have heard from Ministers a...
Clive Betts | 540 c387 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply. It is certainly true that there has been a substantial loss of ...
Derek Twigg | 540 c387 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making a very good speech. On the point about the greatest cuts falling on those w...
Clive Betts | 540 c387 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a good point. I certainly would not describe that as fair, although Ministers a...
Bob Stewart | 540 c388 (Link to this contribution) Would it not be fairer, and would it not be seen to be fairer, if we talked in terms of percentage c...
Speaker | 540 c391 (Link to this contribution) Order. In order to accommodate remaining colleagues who wish to contribute to the debate, to whose n...
Annette Brooke | 540 c391 (Link to this contribution) I intend to be relatively brief, Mr Speaker. We have to start by being clear that very tough cuts h...
Lord Beamish | 540 c383 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman also recognise that those northern councils have a different council tax bas...
Bob Blackman | 540 c383 (Link to this contribution) I recognise the hon. Gentleman's point. A key issue is that comparisons made year on year must consi...
Bob Blackman | 540 c383-4 (Link to this contribution) I recognise what the hon. Gentleman says about council tax base. That is a fair point. I notice that...
Lord Beamish | 540 c383 (Link to this contribution) I know that the hon. Gentleman has a long history in local government and will be aware of the old c...
Speaker | 540 c382 (Link to this contribution) Order. As hon. Members know, the debate is time-limited. Although I am not introducing a time limit ...
Bob Blackman | 540 c382-3 (Link to this contribution) I feel suitably constrained by your introduction, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is a great pleasure to foll...
Robert Neill | 540 c382 (Link to this contribution) May I point out that the right hon. Gentleman was a member of the Cabinet that had capping, whereby ...
Hilary Benn | 540 c382 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, with the powers having been put in place by the previous Conservative Government and having ...
Hilary Benn | 540 c382 (Link to this contribution) I have been very generous in giving way and I have given way to the hon. Gentleman once already, so ...
Robert Neill | 540 c386 (Link to this contribution) The Department's reduction in central costs and administrative expenditure is in excess of 30% and, ...
Clive Betts | 540 c386 (Link to this contribution) The Minister begins to shake his head, but, if he does not believe in that, why is he prepared to su...
Clive Betts | 540 c386 (Link to this contribution) I was in a bit of agreement with the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), another member of t...
Bob Blackman | 540 c385-6 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention and for pointing out the issues relating to balances...
Lord Beamish | 540 c385 (Link to this contribution) When the Prime Minister was Leader of the Opposition, he talked about the importance of mending the ...
Bob Blackman | 540 c385 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for reminding me that one of the necessary aspects of procurement is having s...
Bob Blackman | 540 c385 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for that contribution. One of the necessary aspects of outsourcing is mak...
Bob Stewart | 540 c385 (Link to this contribution) Surely the best way of doing that is by writing the contract in the first place with break points at...
Bob Blackman | 540 c384-5 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising that. I shall come on to some of the issues that every local...
Clive Betts | 540 c385 (Link to this contribution) One of the problems with outsourcing that many councils find, including mine in Sheffield, is that w...
Grant Shapps | 540 c371 (Link to this contribution) There is no smokescreen. I have just said that this is a one-year payment. To argue that £675 millio...
Grant Shapps | 540 c370 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to an hon. Member who has not intervened previously.
Andrew Gwynne | 540 c370 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister. In previous years, the Government's council tax freeze moneys we...
Grant Shapps | 540 c370 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to point out that this is a one-year payment. I make no bones...
Grant Shapps | 540 c370 (Link to this contribution) I will give way in a moment, but I wanted to make the point that Labour Members have opposed £675 mi...
Grant Shapps | 540 c370 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Most people out there would be most interested not in whether a counc...
John Healey | 540 c370 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. The Minister has tried to help the House and said he wanted ...
Speaker | 540 c370 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman has got his point across.
Grant Shapps | 540 c369-70 (Link to this contribution) I would like to make a little progress. I do not think there is any need for council tax increases ...
John Healey | 540 c369 (Link to this contribution) The Minister's letter is in fact a one-page letter. It confirms that the statement made by his spoke...
Grant Shapps | 540 c369 (Link to this contribution) I have not seen the Local Government Chronicle, but I have seen the letter. It was certainly more th...
Grant Shapps | 540 c367 (Link to this contribution) I want to make a little progress so I will push on and then take further interventions. I have alre...
Grant Shapps | 540 c367 (Link to this contribution) I will come on to cover the more detailed points about business rates. I note, however, that the hon...
Helen Jones | 540 c366 (Link to this contribution) The Minister's argument totally ignores the differences between council tax bases in different autho...
John Healey | 540 c368-9 (Link to this contribution) Can the Secretary of State confirm that a statement put out by his spokesman last night for the Loca...
Grant Shapps | 540 c369 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is my predecessor and has tremendous expertise and knowledge in this subjec...
Gavin Williamson | 540 c368 (Link to this contribution) In my area, Tory-run South Staffordshire council is keeping the council tax increase at 0%, and so i...
Grant Shapps | 540 c368 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right to point out that where there is a will, there is a way. Where th...
Steve Rotheram | 540 c368 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman tries to justify the cuts with an argument about fairness, but I am afraid ...
Grant Shapps | 540 c368 (Link to this contribution) I draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to research that I think is in the Library, showing that the l...
Lord Redwood | 540 c367 (Link to this contribution) I am sure we all welcome the £1 billion extra for schools and education, but will the Minister expla...
Grant Shapps | 540 c367 (Link to this contribution) I thank my right hon. Friend. One thing that every Local Government Minister knows is that there wil...
Grant Shapps | 540 c369 (Link to this contribution) I would rather not continue the dispute on the ballot point, if only because we will descend into in...
Grant Shapps | 540 c363 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is absolutely right to pre-empt a later section of this message, which is that ...
Grant Shapps | 540 c362-3 (Link to this contribution) I am extraordinarily grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that sensitive local issue, which she wi...
Anne Main | 540 c362 (Link to this contribution) On the subject of purchasing orders, does my right hon. Friend agree that Hertfordshire county counc...
Lord Watts | 540 c362 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is probably the 15th Housing Minister, from all parties, who has stood at t...
Grant Shapps | 540 c362 (Link to this contribution) I am probably the first Housing and Local Government Minister in some time who has been able to disc...
Hilary Benn | 540 c362 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman talks about transparency, and Nottingham city council should indeed publish...
Lord Beamish | 540 c364 (Link to this contribution) Why is Hartlepool, in the north-east of England, facing a 5.7% reduction in spending per dwelling an...
Grant Shapps | 540 c364 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps when I take the hon. Gentleman's intervention, he will tell us why he did not encourage his ...
Grant Shapps | 540 c364 (Link to this contribution) I will just make a little progress. In reality, money is incredibly short, and we know the impact o...
Grant Shapps | 540 c364 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman's own local authority had a reduction of 3.2% this year—[Interruption.] His autho...
Grant Shapps | 540 c364-5 (Link to this contribution) I have given way a few times; I will make a little progress and then take further interventions. In...
Grant Shapps | 540 c363 (Link to this contribution) I will in a moment. In this Chamber last year there was an awful lot of noise and heat on the quest...
Brandon Lewis | 540 c363 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister agree that we should do all that we can to dispel the myth, put about by the Oppos...
Grant Shapps | 540 c363 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to my hon. Friend, who is absolutely right to point out that we went to extraordi...
Grant Shapps | 540 c363 (Link to this contribution) Before we have a barrage of interventions, let me explain to Opposition Members how we did so. For ...
Grant Shapps | 540 c366 (Link to this contribution) I will take two more interventions and then make a little progress. I give way to the Chair of the C...
Grant Shapps | 540 c365-6 (Link to this contribution) I explained that at some length about five minutes ago, but I shall cover it again. If an area is mo...
Angela C Smith | 540 c365 (Link to this contribution) On the basis of what the Minister has said, how is it that the 30th most deprived borough in the cou...
Grant Shapps | 540 c366 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. While he tries to expand his argument to cover measures such as ...
James Morris | 540 c366 (Link to this contribution) It is important to set this debate in a broader context. At a time when local government has to make...
Grant Shapps | 540 c366 (Link to this contribution) The Chairman of the Communities and Local Government Committee knows the issue better than that. He ...
Clive Betts | 540 c366 (Link to this contribution) Let us get this absolutely right. Despite his justifications about the details, the Minister seems t...
Grant Shapps | 540 c365 (Link to this contribution) I see many former local government Ministers in the Chamber, including one or two on the Opposition ...
Grant Shapps | 540 c365 (Link to this contribution) I shall take interventions from those who have not yet had a chance to intervene. I give way to the ...
Grant Shapps | 540 c365 (Link to this contribution) When I give way to the hon. Gentleman, I hope very much that he will have listened to the passage th...
Grant Shapps | 540 c372-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman asks a timely question, so I am grateful for his intervention. The answer is that...
Grant Shapps | 540 c371 (Link to this contribution) I am disappointed, however, that a small minority of town halls, it appears, plan to reject the mone...
Grant Shapps | 540 c371 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady seeks to bring us on to a completely different area of local financing, but we can cov...
Andrew Gwynne | 540 c384 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman said that local authorities should have expected and planned for reductions. I ha...
Grant Shapps | 540 c362 (Link to this contribution) First, the whole House will have noted that for the first time, as far as I am aware, a Labour Front...
Derek Twigg | 540 c365 (Link to this contribution) My borough of Halton is the 19th worst hit of any authority in the country and it is among the top 3...
Hilary Benn | 540 c381 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and we are talking about a change that the Government are ap...
Grant Shapps | 540 c373 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is aware that every Opposition normally spend their time arguing that Bills...
Lord Redwood | 540 c363 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister confirm that next year he proposes absolutely no decline in aggregate Exchequer fi...
Grant Shapps | 540 c361 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move,"That the Referendums Relating to Council Tax Increases (Principles) (England) Report ...
Subjects
Disclosure of information Disadvantaged Cost effectiveness Council tax Housing Expenditure Increases Local government finance Referendums Cuts
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