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Debate on bill and Committee of the Whole House (HC) on Thursday, 19 April 2012, in the House of Commons.

Finance (No. 4) Bill (Clauses 1, 4, 8, 189 and 209, Schedules 1, 23 and 33, and new Clauses and new Schedules relating to value added tax)

Finance (No. 4) Bill. Committee stage second day. [Relevant document: The Thirtieth Report from the Treasury Committee, Budget 2012, HC 1910-I.]. Clause 4 (Personal Allowances from 2013) agreed to. Clause 8 (High Income Child Benefit Charge) and Schedule 1 agreed to. Bill (Clauses 1, 4, 8, 189 and 209, Schedules 1, 23 and 33, and new Clauses and new Schedules relating to value added tax) reported without amendment.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
543 c546-629 
Session
2010-12
Department
Treasury
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Rachel Reeves | 543 c547 (Link to this contribution) The money involved will not alleviate the pressure on women in retirement. It will all be used to gi...
Derek Twigg | 543 c547 (Link to this contribution) I notice that we have not heard much about fairness or about the big tax cuts being given to million...
Show all contributions (297)
Alun Cairns | 543 c547 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is expressing opposition to the freezing of the age-related allowance. Did she express...
Rachel Reeves | 543 c547 (Link to this contribution) This is a permanent freeze, and the allowance is being abolished entirely for people coming up to re...
Rachel Reeves | 543 c547 (Link to this contribution) I will make some progress. For the reasons that I have given, pensioners from the National Pensione...
Rachel Reeves | 543 c546 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 65, page 2, line 37, leave out subsection (2).
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 543 c546 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment 66, page 3, line 5, leave out
Rachel Reeves | 543 c546-7 (Link to this contribution) It is a privilege to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Primarolo. I rise to speak to the amendments...
Rachel Reeves | 543 c549 (Link to this contribution) I look forward to the hon. Gentleman's intervention.
Jacob Rees-Mogg | 543 c549 (Link to this contribution) Winston Churchill, a very great man, took us back on to the gold standard as Chancellor. If we were ...
Rachel Reeves | 543 c549 (Link to this contribution) Government Members would do well to look to Churchill rather than to their current leaders when deci...
Rachel Reeves | 543 c548 (Link to this contribution) The people who will be hit by this tax are those who have an income in retirement of between £10,500...
Nick Smith | 543 c549 (Link to this contribution) I understand that age-related benefits were an idea put forward by Winston Churchill. Does my hon. F...
Rachel Reeves | 543 c548 (Link to this contribution) If they were being taxed at 20%, that would mean tax of about £13 a week on their pension. Such pens...
Brandon Lewis | 543 c548 (Link to this contribution) Putting aside the fact that people on incomes such as my hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Ian Swal...
Rachel Reeves | 543 c548 (Link to this contribution) I know that my hon. Friend sticks up for pensioners in his constituency, unlike Government Members, ...
Ian Swales | 543 c548 (Link to this contribution) Can the hon. Lady tell the Committee how much tax somebody getting an occupational pension of £67 a ...
Rachel Reeves | 543 c549 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman. His constituents have had a hard time in the past few days. Older people...
Adrian Bailey | 543 c558 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Ben Gummer | 543 c558 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend represents a seat with a huge personal vote. I was not lucky enough to take over from...
Anna Soubry | 543 c559 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that I had to leave the Chamber for a short period, but I am extremely grateful to my hon...
Ben Gummer | 543 c558 (Link to this contribution) I am so deeply tempted by my hon. Friend that I will give way to her.
Ben Gummer | 543 c558 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman will allow me, I would like—
Sheila Gilmore | 543 c558 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman's discussion about the issue of old people is interesting, but is it not the purp...
Ben Gummer | 543 c558 (Link to this contribution) I wish we could deal with this canard. I did not want to be political about this—[Interruption.] No,...
Mark Field | 543 c558 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend was absolutely right when he said earlier that we have collectively been living well ...
Ben Gummer | 543 c559 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right in two senses. Everyone is concerned about their standard of living. That is...
Ben Gummer | 543 c559 (Link to this contribution) I will, but before I do, let me say in response to that intervention that there are many pensioners ...
Ben Gummer | 543 c555-6 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is full of vigour and will be going a long time, so I hope not. The key challenge fa...
Mark Field | 543 c556 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making a sensible and thoughtful speech and some important points. The hon. Member...
Ben Gummer | 543 c555 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) in this important debate. It i...
Lord Harrington of Watford | 543 c555 (Link to this contribution) I was interested to hear my hon. Friend's comments about Labour's prospects of forming a Government....
Rachel Reeves | 543 c553-5 (Link to this contribution) Winston Churchill was right in 1925 when he introduced that measure. People who are retired have fix...
Lord Harrington of Watford | 543 c553 (Link to this contribution) I am so extremely grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way—I hope she will forgive my perseverance. ...
Rachel Reeves | 543 c553 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the hon. Gentleman.
Rachel Reeves | 543 c552-3 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend sticks up for pensioners in her constituency, where, as she says, there are many pres...
Fiona O'Donnell | 543 c552 (Link to this contribution) In constituencies such as mine, many pensioners live in rural communities without access to public t...
Rachel Reeves | 543 c552 (Link to this contribution) I believe my hon. Friend wants to intervene.
Nadhim Zahawi | 543 c557 (Link to this contribution) I take my hon. Friend back to Labour's chances of forming a Government. Does he agree that that requ...
Ben Gummer | 543 c557 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention and for his compliment, because I, too, could be critica...
Ben Gummer | 543 c557 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the hon. Lady and then make some progress.
Ben Gummer | 543 c557 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman knows that that is not the case. [Interruption.] Well, it isn't. I was endeavouri...
Graeme Morrice | 543 c557 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) asked why, if this was such a wo...
Ben Gummer | 543 c557 (Link to this contribution) I profoundly respect the hon. Gentleman. He is a torchbearer for a former age in the Labour party, a...
Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 543 c556 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman believes that the allowance is such a glaring anomaly, why was there not somet...
Ben Gummer | 543 c556 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is entirely right. When Sir Winston Churchill served in Lloyd George's Cabinet and th...
Kelvin Hopkins | 543 c556-7 (Link to this contribution) I hear time and again the Government saying that things are unaffordable and raising spectres of vas...
Ben Gummer | 543 c556 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady asks about the party manifesto. I had hoped to discuss the broader issues and great ch...
Rachel Reeves | 543 c551 (Link to this contribution) That is like suggesting that if inflation was 10% and the Government had to increase pensions by £10...
Rachel Reeves | 543 c550 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. Indeed, Citizens Advice said that the change"““has to b...
Robert Flello | 543 c549-50 (Link to this contribution) I am enjoying my hon. Friend's speech, and she is being extremely generous in allowing hon. Members ...
Rachel Reeves | 543 c549 (Link to this contribution) It has been pretty cold in my constituency in Leeds this winter, as well. My hon. Friend is right to...
Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 543 c549 (Link to this contribution) I understand that one reason why the age-related allowance was originally introduced was the higher ...
Rachel Reeves | 543 c550 (Link to this contribution) Not many Governments would want to take credit for the fact that inflation has reached 5.3%. Pension...
David Gauke | 543 c550 (Link to this contribution) On the Government's treatment of pensioners, the hon. Lady mentioned uprating the state pension. She...
Rachel Reeves | 543 c550 (Link to this contribution) We do not know what the economy will look like in three weeks, let alone in three years. The Governm...
David Gauke | 543 c551 (Link to this contribution) I perhaps forlornly hoped that the hon. Lady would concede the point that the state pension has incr...
Rachel Reeves | 543 c552 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. All hon. Members know that the average rate of inflati...
Brandon Lewis | 543 c551 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady referred to the increase in the pensioners' allowance and linked it to inflation. How ...
Rachel Reeves | 543 c551 (Link to this contribution) No. Cuts to vital services such as the NHS and to social care and local transport also hit pensioner...
Kelvin Hopkins | 543 c551-2 (Link to this contribution) I support my hon. Friend's comments. Rather than speculate about what the next Labour Government wil...
Rachel Reeves | 543 c551 (Link to this contribution) I return to my earlier point: if inflation was 10% and pensioners got a £10 increase in their pensio...
Rachel Reeves | 543 c552 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend and congratulate him on hosting the National Pensioners Convention in Parliam...
Julie Hilling | 543 c552 (Link to this contribution) The increase in pensions has not actually kept up with the cost of living, because if the Government...
Rachel Reeves | 543 c552 (Link to this contribution) The idea that pensioners have been protected from the squeeze on living standards is simply not true...
Charlie Elphicke | 543 c584 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend recall the former Labour Prime Minister Tony Blair saying back in 1997, ““Elect ...
Nigel Mills | 543 c584 (Link to this contribution) Obviously I did not say that, because I would have been wrong if I had, but I did say that no sectio...
Iain McKenzie | 543 c584 (Link to this contribution) I suspect that at the last election the hon. Gentleman did not tell his constituents that he would i...
Nigel Mills | 543 c584 (Link to this contribution) I think my hon. Friend is suggesting that we should view the issue in the round—the issue, that is, ...
Jack Dromey | 543 c584 (Link to this contribution) Did the hon. Gentleman say to his constituents ““Elect me, and we will introduce a granny tax to fun...
Nigel Mills | 543 c585 (Link to this contribution) I wholeheartedly agree with all those sentiments.
Nigel Mills | 543 c585 (Link to this contribution) I certainly did say to my constituents that we would be a fair Government. I support fair tax measur...
Charlie Elphicke | 543 c585 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the previous intervention was a real cheek? The party of the hon. Mem...
Nigel Mills | 543 c585 (Link to this contribution) I accept that that is an issue in respect of the granny tax proposal, but I suspect that the £5 bill...
Nigel Mills | 543 c586 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree about a simplified tax system, and if we could have found a way of merging income t...
Elizabeth Truss | 543 c586 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the things we need to do at the moment is encourage employers ...
Nigel Mills | 543 c586 (Link to this contribution) I have given way many times, so I shall not do so again. I am not sure that the Government have qui...
Nigel Mills | 543 c586 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is tempting me to make an even more broad-ranging speech than I had intended, and if I...
Sheila Gilmore | 543 c587-8 (Link to this contribution) I am now totally baffled, because the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) returned to the sim...
Hywel Williams | 543 c587 (Link to this contribution) Order. I intend to call the Minister at 4.23 pm, so I ask hon. Members to keep their contributions s...
Nigel Mills | 543 c586-7 (Link to this contribution) Not at the moment. I am sure that all hon. Members have seen pensioners in their surgeries who have ...
Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 543 c580 (Link to this contribution) That was done as part of a range of measures. We have been talking about a package of measures today...
Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 543 c580-1 (Link to this contribution) The word ““dignity”” has been used a number of times in this debate. It is an important word, partic...
Iain McKenzie | 543 c580 (Link to this contribution) We hear much from Government Members about the message that this Budget is sending the world—that Br...
Charlie Elphicke | 543 c581 (Link to this contribution) A key concern of mine is to understand why there should be a higher personal allowance for senior ci...
Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 543 c581 (Link to this contribution) Many pensioners, and many among the general population, are disappointed that the Government have no...
Karen Bradley | 543 c581 (Link to this contribution) I have listened carefully to the hon. Lady's point about pensioners' higher living costs, but does s...
Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 543 c582 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is attempting to rewrite history. She will know that the previous Labour Government br...
Elizabeth Truss | 543 c581-2 (Link to this contribution) Are we not in this situation partly because of the failure of reform over the past 30 years? Despite...
Ian Swales | 543 c582 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady mentions the need to give notice of the changes. Does she know how much notice was giv...
Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 543 c583 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is well aware that borrowing is going up. As I was saying, despite the fact that ...
Mark Garnier | 543 c582-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady really must get the point about the deficit right. The deficit has been reduced from m...
Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 543 c582 (Link to this contribution) Government Members keep trying to return to that point. As I have said, the freeze applied to all al...
Nigel Mills | 543 c583 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to speak in this debate, which there has been a wide range of contributions. We hav...
Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 543 c583 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Gentleman's constituents will be very interested by his complacent approach. I...
Stephen Williams | 543 c583 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady has twice said that pensioners are disproportionately affected by the collection of me...
Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 543 c583 (Link to this contribution) I hope to come to a conclusion shortly, but I will give way for the last time.
Nigel Mills | 543 c584 (Link to this contribution) No, I will happily discuss the granny tax. I feel no shame about my Government's policies. Unlike Op...
Baroness Brown of Silvertown | 543 c583 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman be steering wide of the granny tax because he is ashamed of the policy of th...
Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 543 c604 (Link to this contribution) The Centre for Social Justice says that the Government's policy"““could threaten a new wave of famil...
Christopher Chope | 543 c604 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Even during the International Monetary Fund crisis in the mi...
Kelvin Hopkins | 543 c604 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman entirely. I recall when child benefit was first introduced in the 19...
Hywel Williams | 543 c602 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment 10, page 4, line 34, at end add...
Christopher Chope | 543 c603 (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak to amendment 9 and the other amendments in the group, standing in my name and that o...
Christopher Chope | 543 c604 (Link to this contribution) I see the hon. Lady on the Opposition Front Bench agrees with me about that. Perhaps it is appropri...
David Gauke | 543 c593 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right to remind the House of that. We must ask ourselves whether pensioners are d...
Rachel Reeves | 543 c593-4 (Link to this contribution) If you believe what the Exchequer Secretary said, Mr Williams, you would think that pensioners would...
Hywel Williams | 543 c594 (Link to this contribution) I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby. The Committee having divided: ...
Christopher Chope | 543 c602 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 9, page 4, line 33, leave out 'high' and insert 'higher'.
Christopher Chope | 543 c606 (Link to this contribution) I hope that, unlike in previous debates—yesterday in the context of an amendment 1 tabled to clause ...
Edward Leigh | 543 c606 (Link to this contribution) That voter in Christchurch—probably a Tory voter—sums up one of the problems. Why are the Government...
Christopher Chope | 543 c606 (Link to this contribution) Before I give way to my hon. Friend, let me read the last paragraph:"““I ask for your commitment to ...
Christopher Chope | 543 c606 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is absolutely right: that is another of the behavioural consequences, the full implica...
Christopher Chope | 543 c605 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a good point against these provisions. On the issue he raises, it would be ...
Kate Green | 543 c605-6 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his amendment and on his arguments in support of it. Does he ag...
Christopher Chope | 543 c605 (Link to this contribution) There is a whole host of ideas going round. There was a time when no child benefit or allowance was ...
Andrew Gwynne | 543 c605 (Link to this contribution) Is not one of the benefits of a universal system of child benefit the fact that everyone in society ...
Steve Brine | 543 c605 (Link to this contribution) On the issue of fairness, would my hon. Friend have any truck with the idea of limiting child benefi...
Charlie Elphicke | 543 c590 (Link to this contribution) Exactly so. My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. It is true that we took away the whole issue of t...
David Gauke | 543 c590 (Link to this contribution) Clause 4 makes changes to age-related income tax personal allowances, supporting the Government's lo...
Lord Harrington of Watford | 543 c588 (Link to this contribution) I am trying to follow the hon. Lady's rationale and that of her colleagues about this change in the ...
Sheila Gilmore | 543 c588 (Link to this contribution) I think it is important to see this in the context of the cut in the 50p rate. I am also concerned ...
Charlie Elphicke | 543 c588-9 (Link to this contribution) One key point is missing from this debate, and that is a memory on the part of the Labour party. We ...
Baroness Brown of Silvertown | 543 c589 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman going to apologise to the pensioners in his constituency who he is lumbering w...
Charlie Elphicke | 543 c589 (Link to this contribution) On the contrary, I am really delighted that we have delivered on the pensions triple lock guarantee....
Julie Hilling | 543 c589 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way because he makes this link between the 75p increase, which...
Charlie Elphicke | 543 c589 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady forgets that the way the triple lock works involves not just inflation but earnings. A...
Richard Graham | 543 c593 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend raises some valid points about how much the Government have done for pensioners throu...
Kelvin Hopkins | 543 c592 (Link to this contribution) The Minister may be too young to remember, but the Conservative Government under Mrs Thatcher abolis...
David Gauke | 543 c592-3 (Link to this contribution) The Rooker-Wise amendment related to tax thresholds. As for indexation, we are using the higher of e...
Fiona O'Donnell | 543 c590 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can make a helpful point to the Minister. Does he think it simplifies the tax system for 3...
David Gauke | 543 c590-1 (Link to this contribution) I will deal with that in my remarks on child benefit, which we will debate shortly. The idea of peop...
Elizabeth Truss | 543 c590 (Link to this contribution) Given that the UK is 94th in the world according to the World Economic Forum for the extent and comp...
David Gauke | 543 c590 (Link to this contribution) I have to say that I have not. What I have heard from the Labour party is their resistance to any of...
Richard Graham | 543 c591 (Link to this contribution) We heard from the Opposition some extraordinary statements which included the phrase ““levelling dow...
David Gauke | 543 c591-2 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. What we are seeing, and what we have seen over the past few year...
Lord Austin of Dudley | 543 c591 (Link to this contribution) The Minister said twice that nobody would lose out in cash terms. Can he tell us how many people wil...
David Gauke | 543 c591 (Link to this contribution) The number affected is very clear. We have published it in the tax information impact note. It is 4....
Lord McCabe | 543 c608 (Link to this contribution) Like the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope), a constituent of mine, Mrs Morris, contacted me. H...
Cathy Jamieson | 543 c608 (Link to this contribution) I will be as brief as possible, as I am aware that there is not much time left. There are two key i...
Christopher Chope | 543 c607-8 (Link to this contribution) If I am given the opportunity, and if I do not succeed in persuading the Government of the merits of...
Lord McCabe | 543 c606 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman is not successful with his amendment, will he take his constituent's advice an...
Cathy Jamieson | 543 c608 (Link to this contribution) But that argument simply does not wash from a Government and a Minister who have continued to suppor...
Cathy Jamieson | 543 c608 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a very interesting point, and I shall come on to address the effect of this mea...
Kate Green | 543 c609 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that if the Government do not even know that simple fact, they are even le...
Cathy Jamieson | 543 c609-10 (Link to this contribution) Again, my hon. Friend makes an extremely important point, which I hope to discuss in relation to how...
Mark Reckless | 543 c609 (Link to this contribution) Yesterday, the Prime Minister pointed at the Opposition Benches and said Labour MPs would be voting ...
Cathy Jamieson | 543 c609 (Link to this contribution) I was hoping that the hon. Gentleman was going to respond to my point about children, but that is ob...
Cathy Jamieson | 543 c610 (Link to this contribution) That is an important point and I will address it straight away. We have to decide whether or not we ...
Mark Spencer | 543 c610 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Lady explain to the taxpayers of Sherwood in Nottinghamshire who are working more than...
Cathy Jamieson | 543 c610-1 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a very good point. As I have outlined, the problems could be similar if both pa...
Helen Goodman | 543 c610 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making an extremely important and interesting point. Is she saying that this measu...
Cathy Jamieson | 543 c611 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a significant point and that is part of the fairness test, which I do not think...
Fiona O'Donnell | 543 c611 (Link to this contribution) Has my hon. Friend, unlike the Government, considered the fact that in families where one parent cho...
Eilidh Whiteford | 543 c562 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely. It is not only about rural and transport costs, but increases in VAT, cuts in fuel...
Fiona O'Donnell | 543 c562 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady, like me, has many pensioners in her constituency who are on modest incomes and though...
Eilidh Whiteford | 543 c560-1 (Link to this contribution) I will try to keep my remarks short. I have listened to today's debate with great interest. First an...
Nigel Evans | 543 c560 (Link to this contribution) Order. I remind right hon. and hon. Members that, because of the programme motion, this debate has t...
Eilidh Whiteford | 543 c561-2 (Link to this contribution) I absolutely agree. In fact, that was one of the points that I wanted to make, because that subject ...
Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 543 c561 (Link to this contribution) I agree with everything that the hon. Lady has said so far. Does she agree that a subject that we do...
Ben Gummer | 543 c559-60 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is entirely right. One of the terrifying things that comes out of all public opinion s...
Eilidh Whiteford | 543 c559 (Link to this contribution) Obviously the proposals that we are talking about today do not apply to the very poorest pensioners ...
Ben Gummer | 543 c560 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman would be right, were the changes in the Bill modest to that degree. They represen...
Mark Durkan | 543 c560 (Link to this contribution) In that context, does the hon. Gentleman agree that if we are to encourage confidence among people o...
Margot James | 543 c563 (Link to this contribution) I wanted to begin by setting the scene and explaining why I thought that the Budget represented a st...
Margot James | 543 c563 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. I notice that she quoted the last two years over which t...
Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 543 c563 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady will be aware that the income of the very rich has increased by 20% over the last two ...
Margot James | 543 c563 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the Budget, which has been a Budget for enterprise and growth, and I would defend the redu...
Eilidh Whiteford | 543 c562-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall not take another intervention; I am trying to conclude my remarks. The Government had a cha...
Eilidh Whiteford | 543 c562 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Leeds West pointed out that nobody on an income of more than £25,500 a year will...
Stephen Williams | 543 c562 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady just said that this group of people are on below-average incomes. That might be true a...
Eilidh Whiteford | 543 c562 (Link to this contribution) I was about to wind up, but I would be delighted to take an intervention.
Margot James | 543 c563 (Link to this contribution) However, I will give way to my hon. Friend.
Mark Field | 543 c564 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend. I entirely agree with what she said about the importance of promoting enterp...
Margot James | 543 c564 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, which prompts me to remind the House that the top 1% of...
Margot James | 543 c564 (Link to this contribution) I want to make some progress on the main subject of the debate, which is the freezing of tax allowan...
Fiona O'Donnell | 543 c564 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the hon. Lady will make the progress to which she referred and will begin to deal with the i...
Margot James | 543 c564-5 (Link to this contribution) I did not make representations to the Chancellor on a matter as technical as the one that we are dis...
Robert Flello | 543 c565 (Link to this contribution) I would argue that pensioners are not at all immune to the effects of the Government's policies, whe...
Margot James | 543 c565 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments, but I should not take any more interventions as other M...
Mark Field | 543 c565 (Link to this contribution) It cannot be bad that a U-turn should come so quickly. Seriously, however, I wanted to make the poin...
Margot James | 543 c565-6 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has, in part, responded to the point made by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South...
Graeme Morrice | 543 c567 (Link to this contribution) I am conscious of the time, Mr Bone, so I will keep my speech short. May I start by congratulating m...
Harriett Baldwin | 543 c567 (Link to this contribution) Has the hon. Gentleman shown his constituents the article in the Financial Times headed:"““When is a...
Margot James | 543 c566-7 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but I will not take any more interventions. As a result of that Government pledge, ther...
Graeme Morrice | 543 c568 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his contribution, but I thought we were talking about the pr...
Graeme Morrice | 543 c567 (Link to this contribution) I must confess that I have not shared that article from the Financial Times with my constituents, wh...
Alun Cairns | 543 c567-8 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his generosity in giving way. There is an inconsistency betw...
Ben Gummer | 543 c571 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady makes a sensible point. One of the big challenges that faces us in increasing the stat...
Brandon Lewis | 543 c568-9 (Link to this contribution) I supported the Budget a couple of weeks ago and I still do now. It is important to look at it in it...
Iain McKenzie | 543 c569 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that to benefit from this increase in the tax threshold one first need...
Brandon Lewis | 543 c569 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, which gives me a chance to highlight the good news...
Fiona O'Donnell | 543 c569 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is going to talk about the age allowance at any moment. Has he con...
Ian Swales | 543 c568 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Graeme Morrice | 543 c568 (Link to this contribution) I notice that there are two Lib Dems in the Chamber today, so I will give way to one of them.
Ian Swales | 543 c568 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has obviously discussed the fairness of this measure with his pensioner constitue...
Graeme Morrice | 543 c568 (Link to this contribution) I refer the hon. Gentleman to my comment a few moments ago: we are talking about the proposals conta...
Brandon Lewis | 543 c569-70 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady has just made a very good argument for cutting taxes and increasing the personal allow...
Alison McGovern | 543 c570-1 (Link to this contribution) I shall make a few remarks about an important impact of the changes, which is at risk of going unrec...
Alison McGovern | 543 c573-4 (Link to this contribution) That was a long intervention. The hon. Gentleman said that inequality grew under the previous Govern...
Charlie Elphicke | 543 c573 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Lady for giving way again; she is being extraordinarily generous in taking interven...
Alison McGovern | 543 c573 (Link to this contribution) I am so pleased that the hon. Gentleman chose to mention the north-south divide, because it gives me...
Alison McGovern | 543 c572-3 (Link to this contribution) I always try to be generous. In fact, I thought that we were agreeing across the House that the argu...
David Mowat | 543 c573 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is making a powerful point about the cumulative impact of policies on particular regio...
Alison McGovern | 543 c572 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman seems to be saying that if you are poor enough to have a short life span, you are...
Alison McGovern | 543 c571-2 (Link to this contribution) I shall return to my constituents and tell them that a moment of cross-party agreement broke out ove...
Charlie Elphicke | 543 c572 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady makes much of the fact that age and longevity vary quite a lot throughout the country....
Alison McGovern | 543 c573 (Link to this contribution) I will give way, and I feel sure that the hon. Gentleman will say what he thinks the Government ough...
Alison McGovern | 543 c574 (Link to this contribution) Would the hon. Lady like to intervene on me again, then, and say what proportion of pensioners will ...
Harriett Baldwin | 543 c574 (Link to this contribution) Much as we all love and admire the BBC, not everything that it puts on its website to do with benefi...
Alison McGovern | 543 c574 (Link to this contribution) That point was very well made. I am never surprised by the ability of people to brush over things. W...
Baroness Brown of Silvertown | 543 c574 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend not astonished by the figure of 40%? If one listens to the Conservative party tryi...
Alison McGovern | 543 c574 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman, too, is welcome to intervene on me again and say what he thinks the proportion i...
Ben Gummer | 543 c574 (Link to this contribution) Whatever the proportion of pensioners affected, whether it is 10%, 20%, 30% or 40%, does the hon. La...
Alison McGovern | 543 c574 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Lady therefore saying that the proportion is not 40%? She indicates that she does not kn...
Harriett Baldwin | 543 c574 (Link to this contribution) A BBC website had a wholly inaccurate story yesterday about the changes to employment and support al...
Alison McGovern | 543 c575 (Link to this contribution) The great Bill Shankly once said that he was always surprised that people were surprised at surprise...
Fiona O'Donnell | 543 c575 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making an excellent contribution. Does she agree that when we meet older people in...
Rachel Reeves | 543 c574 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that it is disappointing that hon. Members will vote on the matter today w...
Lord Evans of Rainow | 543 c575-6 (Link to this contribution) I pay tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for Stourbridge (Margot James) and for Ipswich (Ben Gum...
Alison McGovern | 543 c575 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. Of course, older people are worried about the next generation's future, and...
Lord Evans of Rainow | 543 c576 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for making that good point, with which I agree. It is a good Bu...
Mark Garnier | 543 c576 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that over the period of the changes to the tax-free allowance, the total c...
Lord Evans of Rainow | 543 c576 (Link to this contribution) As a father of three young children, I realise that we are all in this together, and we need to make...
Sheila Gilmore | 543 c576 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that, particularly for families with children, the decreases in tax c...
Brandon Lewis | 543 c576 (Link to this contribution) Following on from the intervention about growth and families, since the Budget one company in Great ...
Lord Evans of Rainow | 543 c576-7 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely; I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for that contribution. At the end of the day, the B...
Kate Green | 543 c577 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman's comparison with communist China is completely spurious when we look at what rem...
Lord Evans of Rainow | 543 c577 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady makes a valuable point. I have huge respect for her and for everything she has done on...
Brandon Lewis | 543 c577 (Link to this contribution) Bearing in mind what the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) said, was my hon. Friend...
Stephen Williams | 543 c578 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can help my hon. Friend with his rhetorical question. Apart from Mr Williams in the Chair,...
Lord Evans of Rainow | 543 c578 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure about those figures, but I would go back to my original point: if the 50% tax were so ...
Graeme Morrice | 543 c577 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman said a few moments ago that reducing the top rate from 50p to 45p raises next to ...
Lord Evans of Rainow | 543 c577 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point on the disparity between rich and poor under t...
David Mowat | 543 c577 (Link to this contribution) A number of Labour Members have mentioned bravery in respect of Government Members and some Budget m...
Lord Evans of Rainow | 543 c577 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a good point, which the Prime Minister made yesterday at the Dispatch Box.
Lord Evans of Rainow | 543 c579 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr Williams. I say to the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) ...
Jonathan Edwards | 543 c579 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr Williams. I thought we were having a debate on the granny tax rather than on...
Lord Evans of Rainow | 543 c578 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's astuteness in recognising that most hon. Members in the Chamb...
Alun Cairns | 543 c580 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Lady accept that when the last Chancellor froze the age allowance and the personal all...
Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 543 c579 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr Williams, for giving me the opportunity to follow on from that Second Reading speech b...
Lord Evans of Rainow | 543 c579 (Link to this contribution) I have given away several times. I am bringing my speech to a conclusion. Finally, I welcome the Ch...
Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 543 c579-80 (Link to this contribution) I think that many Government Members must feel ashamed of this policy, particularly given that it wa...
David Gauke | 543 c616-7 (Link to this contribution) I have only one minute remaining and want to address the concerns raised during the debate, so I wil...
Christopher Chope | 543 c617 (Link to this contribution) I thank everybody who has participated in this spirited debate. Having heard the Minister's explanat...
David Gauke | 543 c616 (Link to this contribution) For those who are in the tax credit system, we currently make an assessment of household income. If ...
Fiona O'Donnell | 543 c616 (Link to this contribution) Will the Exchequer Secretary give way?
David Gauke | 543 c615-6 (Link to this contribution) We do have progressive taxation, and under this Government the top 1% of earners pay 27.7% of all in...
Laurence Robertson | 543 c616 (Link to this contribution) I am still confused about why we cannot assess all the incomes in a household in the same way as whe...
David Gauke | 543 c615 (Link to this contribution) The only benefit received by those in the top 10% of earners, which includes all of us, is child ben...
Caroline Lucas | 543 c615 (Link to this contribution) Has the Minister heard of progressive taxation? That would be a concrete way of clawing back money f...
Cathy Jamieson | 543 c611-2 (Link to this contribution) With respect to the hon. Gentleman—he said he had some sympathy with my points, so I do not want to ...
Mark Garnier | 543 c611 (Link to this contribution) I am not entirely unsympathetic to a great many of the hon. Lady's points, but what she is describin...
Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 543 c612 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to speak in this debate so I shall keep my remarks brief. I do not have at my fin...
Harriett Baldwin | 543 c612 (Link to this contribution) What would my hon. Friend say, though, about the example of two wealthy Americans who have four chil...
Mark Reckless | 543 c613 (Link to this contribution) A rather larger category than that mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire (H...
Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 543 c612-3 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a valid point and I accept her argument, but we need to look at this proposal w...
Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 543 c613 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an extremely apposite point. If we really are all in this together, it beggars ...
Helen Goodman | 543 c614 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I was coming to that point. I want the Minister to address specific...
Seema Malhotra | 543 c614 (Link to this contribution) The point about women's tax and independence is extremely important. Does my hon. Friend agree, foll...
David Gauke | 543 c615 (Link to this contribution) I will take interventions, but I am sure that Members realise that they are eating into time to answ...
David Gauke | 543 c614-5 (Link to this contribution) The focus on doing this through the tax system and on having one taxpayer above a certain threshold ...
Mark Reckless | 543 c614 (Link to this contribution) The Minister said that the charge would apply if ““their”” income was above £50,000. That would be c...
David Gauke | 543 c614 (Link to this contribution) We are somewhat short of time. There are two reasons why we may not be able to do the measure justic...
Eilidh Whiteford | 543 c615 (Link to this contribution) It is misleading to insinuate that poorer families are subsidising better-off families. If there is ...
David Gauke | 543 c615 (Link to this contribution) I recognise that not everyone wants to address the matter and that there are those who do not want t...
Nadhim Zahawi | 543 c550 (Link to this contribution) I have a very simple question: will the hon. Lady reverse the policy on the allowance?
Kate Green | 543 c585 (Link to this contribution) Something interesting and important was said a few moments ago: it is important that we design a sys...
Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 543 c581 (Link to this contribution) I mentioned this in an intervention. At the time of the allowance's introduction, a number of reason...
Baroness Brown of Silvertown | 543 c579 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend think that the hon. Gentleman was unwilling to discuss age-related taxation beca...
Helen Goodman | 543 c613 (Link to this contribution) There are four problems with the proposal that the Government are putting to the House this evening....
Edward Leigh | 543 c615 (Link to this contribution) Unfortunately, we are introducing more and more complexity. For example, the new charge must be paid...
Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 543 c612 (Link to this contribution) I defer to the parliamentary private secretary to the Financial Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member...
Harriett Baldwin | 543 c547 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady refers to the ““granny tax””. I know that she, like me, would really like to see older...
Rachel Reeves | 543 c585 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman is such a strong advocate of saving, will he join me in expressing disappointm...
Christopher Chope | 543 c604-5 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a really good point, which was also covered in the recent Adjournment debate on...
Marcus Jones | 543 c589-90 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that there is some hollowness to the Labour party's argument regarding the...
Subjects
Children Families Income tax Personal income Pensioners Tax allowances Taxation Tax rates and bands Age allowances High income child benefit tax charge
Legislation
Finance Bill 2010-12 to 2012-13
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk