Debate on bill on Friday, 25 January 2013, in the House of Commons, led by Baroness McIntosh of Pickering. The answering member was Hugh Robertson.

Offshore Gambling Bill

Second reading. Debate adjourned. To be resumed on 1 March.

Secondary information

Type: Parliamentary proceeding
Reference: 557 cc573-639
Session: 2012-13
Department: Department for Culture, Media and Sport
Legislative stage: Second reading
Procedure: Private members' bills proceedings
Chamber / Committee: House of Commons chamber
Related items: Offshore Gambling Bill 2012-13.
Monday, 25 June 2012
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions: Lindsay Hoyle | 557 c628 (Link to this contribution)
Order. I loved the hon. Gentleman’s description of his horses, whether he has a leg and which hor...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 cc592-3 (Link to this contribution)
I see where the hon. Gentleman is coming from, but I think that would be unacceptable to the raci...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c574 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
I am delighted to present the Bill ...; Philip Davies | 557 c574 (Link to this contribution)
It would help if my hon. Friend set out the main purpose of the Bill and if we pinned down its ma...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c574 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who takes a close interest in horse racing. He and I share a lov...; Baroness Brown of Silvertown | 557 c574 (Link to this contribution)
One of the issues that I should like the hon. Lady to address is enforcement. An awful lot of int...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 cc574-5 (Link to this contribution)
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk for the groundwork that he has done i...; Paul Farrelly | 557 c575 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Lady is correct to highlight the flight offshore of online gambling as an unintended con...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c575 (Link to this contribution)
I am delighted to do so, and I shall say a little more about bet365. Not only is it a major emplo...; James Duddridge | 557 c575 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend has referred several times to this country, and I am not sure what she means. The ...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 cc575-6 (Link to this contribution)
On a closer reading of the Bill, my hon. Friend will see that it
“extends to England and Wa...; Philip Davies | 557 c576 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend will be delighted to know that I contribute to the local economy in her constituen...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c576 (Link to this contribution)
I shall try to speak more slowly, because I referred to the stable lads and lasses. I yield to no...; Philip Davies | 557 c576 (Link to this contribution)
Has my hon. Friend had the pleasure of seeking out the advice of Mr Michael Easterby, the trainer...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 cc576-7 (Link to this contribution)
Indeed, my ears are still smarting from my last visit, when I witnessed the severe flooding suffe...; Philip Davies | 557 c577 (Link to this contribution)
I hope my hon. Friend will not over-egg that pudding. Most small owners—and most owners are small...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c577 (Link to this contribution)
That is a matter for debate. The five-year trend shows that there has been a 15% drop in prize mo...; Philip Davies | 557 c577 (Link to this contribution)
My horses run on the flat and over jumps. Any prize money that anybody gets back from owning a ho...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c578 (Link to this contribution)
I disagree on the basis of the conversations that I have had with the industry. Over the past fiv...; David Nuttall | 557 c578 (Link to this contribution)
Although my hon. Friend states that the prize money from the levy has gone down, I have figures t...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 cc578-9 (Link to this contribution)
I shall come to that point in a moment. The levy yield has gone down in the past 10 years by almo...; Paul Farrelly | 557 c579 (Link to this contribution)
Heaven forbid that the hon. Lady should suspect the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) of ev...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c580 (Link to this contribution)
I think that the hon. Gentleman might find some reassurance in the remarks I am about to make. I ...; Philip Davies | 557 c580 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly) is a far more distinguished member of th...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c580 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; John Bercow | 557 c580 (Link to this contribution)
Order. It was, I think, predictable that the intervention of the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c580 (Link to this contribution)
I hope that I might please you, Mr Speaker, even if I disappoint other hon. Members, when I say t...; James Duddridge | 557 c580 (Link to this contribution)
All members of the Committee are distinguished and their advice should be considered carefully. B...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 cc580-1 (Link to this contribution)
I believe that the debate we are about to have on clause 4 goes to the heart of that matter, but ...; Philip Davies | 557 c581 (Link to this contribution)
If the Gambling Commission had to license each individual betting operator wherever they operated...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c581 (Link to this contribution)
I hope that my hon. Friend will not mind me answering in plain Yorkshire by saying that that is p...; Philip Davies | 557 c581 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend claims that that what I said was daft, but could she give some examples of betting...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c582 (Link to this contribution)
I do not think that the purpose of this debate is to draw up a grey list or a black list; the pur...; David Nuttall | 557 c582 (Link to this contribution)
I am not sure why my hon. Friend has mentioned China. It has not been mentioned before or in any ...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 cc582-3 (Link to this contribution)
I think that my hon. Friend’s argument helps mine and disagrees with that of my hon. Friend the M...; James Duddridge | 557 c583 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Lady mentions suspicious transactions in cricket and football, but would she also includ...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c583 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend throws new light on the debate with an issue of which I was unaware. I do not know...; Philip Davies | 557 c583 (Link to this contribution)
Will my hon. Friend give way?; John Bercow | 557 c583 (Link to this contribution)
Order. May I just say, with reference to what has been said, that periodic reference to and use o...; Philip Davies | 557 c583 (Link to this contribution)
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way, but would she accept that ...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c583 (Link to this contribution)
What we are trying to do is help racing in the UK by bringing activities that are deemed to be in...; Paul Farrelly | 557 c583 (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I can help with some facts. Will the hon. Lady acknowledge that it is important to compar...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 cc584-5 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful and pertinent point that I hope will satisfy my hon. Friend t...; James Duddridge | 557 c585 (Link to this contribution)
If hon. Members are concerned about the levy—I have a few concerns—would it be possible to propos...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c585 (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I am not being very clear, but I think that the wish of the House is to include clause 4 ...; Philip Davies | 557 c585 (Link to this contribution)
I understand the thrust of my hon. Friend’s point. However, when the Secretary of State comes to ...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c585 (Link to this contribution)
That is a matter for debate. I would hope that there can be some flexibility in this regard. Tax ...; James Duddridge | 557 c585 (Link to this contribution)
Have the Government not asked the levy board to look at a consultation on the voluntary arrangeme...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c585 (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps we are in danger of the horse having bolted. I would say, as we canter around the course,...; James Duddridge | 557 c586 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is defeating her own argument by mentioning the one company that has come forward ...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c586 (Link to this contribution)
Let me make the case, and then perhaps I will satisfy my hon. Friend’s request. Importantly, the ...; Clive Efford | 557 c586 (Link to this contribution)
I suspect that the hon. Lady is coming to a conclusion, but I was expecting her to refer to discu...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 cc586-7 (Link to this contribution)
I am not concluding quite yet, but I have always considered myself to be particularly close to th...; James Duddridge | 557 c587 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend might be being unfair on the Minister. Although he has indicated that the Bill wil...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c587 (Link to this contribution)
I do not want to appear ungracious and I congratulate the Minister on the work he has done in pre...; Philip Davies | 557 c587 (Link to this contribution)
That is not necessarily the complete picture, as I am sure my hon. Friend knows. Racing and race ...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c588 (Link to this contribution)
Picture rights are only part of the story, however, and are up for renegotiation at frequent inte...; David Nuttall | 557 c588 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend makes an interesting point about the reduction in the number of runners. She menti...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 cc588-9 (Link to this contribution)
As I have said, other reasons include the cost of keeping a horse in training, to which I am sure...; Philip Davies | 557 c589 (Link to this contribution)
Lest anyone be confused by my hon. Friend’s musings, I assure her that I am certainly not at the ...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 cc589-591 (Link to this contribution)
I have a link with Sheikh Mohammed—his horses were at stud where I live in the constituency—but I...; Paul Farrelly | 557 c591 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Lady will probably be aware that there have been challenges to point of consumption legi...; Paul Farrelly | 557 c593 (Link to this contribution)
I, too, start with a double congratulation to the hon. Member for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock)—...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c593 (Link to this contribution)
What we are seeking is a number of assurances from the Minister, as I set out in my speech.; Paul Farrelly | 557 cc593-4 (Link to this contribution)
It seems clear from that intervention that the Bill will not go forward in its current form, beca...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c594 (Link to this contribution)
As the hon. Gentleman has mentioned bet365 in his constituency and the RGA’s lobbying power, does...; Paul Farrelly | 557 cc594-5 (Link to this contribution)
I take the hon. Lady’s point, but I think she is rather doing herself down, because the case made...; James Duddridge | 557 c595 (Link to this contribution)
It is interesting to hear what bet365 has done, for good reasons, within its community. Has the h...; Paul Farrelly | 557 cc595-6 (Link to this contribution)
I do not want to get involved in the internal politics of the RGA. All its members are reputable,...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c596 (Link to this contribution)
It is for the simple reason that the levy was set up to help the racing industry but is now being...; Paul Farrelly | 557 cc596-7 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Lady for that response. As the day goes on, she will probably have to listen to ...; George Freeman | 557 cc597-8 (Link to this contribution)
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) for leading the ...; Philip Davies | 557 c598 (Link to this contribution)
As my hon. Friend knows, I share his passion for horse racing, but does he not accept that the le...; George Freeman | 557 cc598-9 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. I dare say there is an extent to which the industry ne...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c599 (Link to this contribution)
I am following my hon. Friend’s arguments very closely. Does he share my concern that the average...; George Freeman | 557 c599 (Link to this contribution)
As ever, my hon. Friend makes an excellent point. That was exactly the point I was about to make....; David Nuttall | 557 c600 (Link to this contribution)
In what ways does my hon. Friend think the operators who have moved offshore are enjoying any les...; George Freeman | 557 cc600-1 (Link to this contribution)
Those operators are not required to comply with the regulation that applies to operators based in...; James Duddridge | 557 c601 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend has referred repeatedly to the contribution of horse racing specifically, but the ...; George Freeman | 557 cc601-2 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend has made an excellent point. While of course the industry has a general economic i...; James Duddridge | 557 c602 (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to follow the excellent speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Norfolk (Geo...; Philip Davies | 557 c602 (Link to this contribution)
Will my hon. Friend give way?; James Duddridge | 557 c602 (Link to this contribution)
I have quite a few points to make, but I will give way.; Philip Davies | 557 c602 (Link to this contribution)
I just want my hon. Friend to clarify something. Is he advancing the case that hon. Members are a...; Nigel Evans | 557 c603 (Link to this contribution)
Order. Before the hon. Member for Rochford and Southend East (James Duddridge) responds to that, ...; George Freeman | 557 c603 (Link to this contribution)
indicated assent.; Nigel Evans | 557 c603 (Link to this contribution)
I think that that means no precedent has been created.; James Duddridge | 557 c603 (Link to this contribution)
Obviously I abide by that very wise ruling, Mr Deputy Speaker.
The hon. Member for Newcastl...; Matt Hancock | 557 c603 (Link to this contribution)
What did I do to deserve that?; James Duddridge | 557 c603 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend has done many things to deserve that, as he well knows. However, I think it best t...; George Freeman | 557 c603 (Link to this contribution)
Although attendance in the House and Public Gallery is relatively sparse today, as it is a Friday...; James Duddridge | 557 cc603-4 (Link to this contribution)
I could not agree more. That is very important and I am sure that if there is a vote, if we reach...; George Freeman | 557 c604 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend makes an interesting point about the lack of explanatory notes. Does he agree that...; James Duddridge | 557 c604 (Link to this contribution)
I would certainly encourage the Government to produce simple and short legislation, and less of i...; Philip Davies | 557 c604 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend might be being far too kind to the 2005 Act. As far as I can see, it was intended ...; James Duddridge | 557 c605 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is right to chastise me in relation to super-casinos. I was referring to the broad...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c605 (Link to this contribution)
I am following my hon. Friend’s remarks with great interest. Did the 2005 Act not liberalise and ...; James Duddridge | 557 cc605-7 (Link to this contribution)
Looking back on the 2005 Act, it was a bit of a pig’s ear in relation to a number of issues. In S...; Philip Davies | 557 c606 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is right about the importance of people being able to self-exclude from gambling. ...; James Duddridge | 557 c606 (Link to this contribution)
What my hon. Friend says is logical, but I challenge him. I have not seen examples of that. I not...; George Freeman | 557 c606 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend was developing an interesting argument about onshore and offshore taxation. Does h...; James Duddridge | 557 c606 (Link to this contribution)
I entirely agree. The Prime Minister’s other speech this week will receive much more coverage in ...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c606 (Link to this contribution)
On the point about self-exclusion, is it not the case, as I found when I visited some high street...; James Duddridge | 557 c608 (Link to this contribution)
I apologise to my hon. Friend, but I will have to defer to others on that point, because I have p...; David Nuttall | 557 c608 (Link to this contribution)
Will my hon. Friend give way?; James Duddridge | 557 c608 (Link to this contribution)
Without hesitation, on the condition that I have a first supporter.; David Nuttall | 557 c608 (Link to this contribution)
Will my hon. Friend enlighten the House on the odds he was able to obtain on his becoming the nex...; James Duddridge | 557 c608 (Link to this contribution)
I will illustrate the point I was trying to make by placing the bet. Initially, staff pretty much...; George Freeman | 557 c608 (Link to this contribution)
I apologise for interrupting my hon. Friend’s argument. He mentioned that the 1992 grand national...; James Duddridge | 557 cc608-9 (Link to this contribution)
I am not sure whether I might not still be on my feet at 1 o’clock, but perhaps if I rush through...; Paul Farrelly | 557 c609 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman is right, but the not very technical term is “in-game betting”, as I understan...; James Duddridge | 557 cc609-610 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for that correction. One of the things emerging from this debate is that I need to ...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c610 (Link to this contribution)
I understand that countries such as Denmark have made the point of consumption the basis of adver...; James Duddridge | 557 cc610-1 (Link to this contribution)
I am not sure that there is a reluctance to engage with the technology per se, but there is a rel...; Philip Davies | 557 c611 (Link to this contribution)
I am struck by how much faith my hon. Friend has in the Gambling Commission over and above any ot...; James Duddridge | 557 c611 (Link to this contribution)
I think that my hon. Friend is putting words into my mouth in relation to the Gambling Commission...; David Nuttall | 557 c611 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend makes the valid and interesting point that some people may complain that they have...; James Duddridge | 557 cc611-3 (Link to this contribution)
That is a reasonable point. There could be better protection in other jurisdictions, or simply be...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c613 (Link to this contribution)
As I think I said, two race courses have closed, so we are have only 58 race courses at the momen...; James Duddridge | 557 cc613-4 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my hon. Friend for that correction. I had not picked up on the fact that that figure was ...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c614 (Link to this contribution)
Today we are seeking a reiteration from the Minister of his six-month time frame for the current ...; James Duddridge | 557 c615 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend made a very powerful argument. The case she made persuaded me to move far more tow...; David Nuttall | 557 cc615-6 (Link to this contribution)
As ever, it is a great honour and privilege to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and ...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c616 (Link to this contribution)
I hope that it is appropriate for me to point out that, although it is now too late to bet on And...; David Nuttall | 557 cc616-623 (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for her intervention. I am pleased to hear that Andy Murray ...; Philip Davies | 557 cc623-4 (Link to this contribution)
We have had an excellent debate today, and I commend everybody who contributed to it. It has been...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c624 (Link to this contribution)
I am following my hon. Friend’s remarks carefully; I apologise for missing the start of his speec...; Philip Davies | 557 c625 (Link to this contribution)
I accept what my hon. Friend says. She is far more of an expert on these matters than I will ever...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c625 (Link to this contribution)
The point of consumption tax has already been established in other member states for the purposes...; Philip Davies | 557 cc625-8 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is right. Such measures have been established in other parts of the European Union...; Philip Davies | 557 cc628-9 (Link to this contribution)
I am very grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker. You are, as ever, absolutely right. I was getting carried ...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c629 (Link to this contribution)
Obviously we hope to hear the Minister give the reassurances that we have requested, but the whol...; Philip Davies | 557 cc629-631 (Link to this contribution)
I understand my hon. Friend’s point, but in some respects she argues against herself. As she says...; James Duddridge | 557 c631 (Link to this contribution)
I apologise to my hon. Friend for not being here right at the beginning of his speech. Having sat...; Philip Davies | 557 cc631-2 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend and I will try to assist him by looking at the data from 2009-10 ...; James Duddridge | 557 c632 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is explaining very well how money flows from the bookmakers via the picture rights...; Philip Davies | 557 c633 (Link to this contribution)
That is essentially the point that I am making. In the past, there has been a “racing versus book...; David Nuttall | 557 c633 (Link to this contribution)
Does my hon. Friend agree with the comments of Rachel Hood, the president of the Racehorse Owners...; Philip Davies | 557 cc633-7 (Link to this contribution)
I do. Rachel Hood is the wife of John Gosden, one of the top trainers in the country. She is also...; Clive Efford | 557 c634 (Link to this contribution)
I feel like I have been under starter’s orders for four and a half hours and I have finally got o...; Hugh Robertson | 557 cc634-8 (Link to this contribution)
I start by thanking my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) for securing ...; Philip Davies | 557 c638 (Link to this contribution)
At present the levy situation has to be resolved on an annual basis. Will the Government be able ...; Hugh Robertson | 557 cc638-9 (Link to this contribution)
The best way of answering that is that I have not in any way restricted the chairman of the levy ...; Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 557 c573 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move, That the House sit in private.
Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 16...
Subjects: Betting Licensing Horse racing Gambling Taxation
Legislation: Offshore Gambling Bill 2012-13
Link: View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk

Offshore Gambling Bill

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