Emergency debate on Tuesday, 5 March 2019, in the House of Commons, led by Alan Brown. The answering member was Lord Grayling.
EU Exit Preparations: Ferry Contracts
Motion that this House has considered the latest developments in the UK Government ferry contract awards for no-deal preparations. Emergency debate following a Standing Order No. 24 application. Agreed to on question.
Secondary information
- Type
- Parliamentary proceeding
- Reference
- 655 cc818-864
- Session
- 2017-19
- Department
- Department for Transport
- Chamber / Committee
- House of Commons chamber
- Related items
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EU Exit Preparations: Ferry Contracts
Tuesday, 5 March 2019
Parliamentary proceedings
House of Commons
- Proceeding contributions
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Alan Brown | 655 c819 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered the latest developments in the UK Government ...
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Chris Green | 655 c819 (Link to this contribution)
Assuming that the hon. Gentleman wishes to respect democracy and therefore to deliver on the Brex...
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Alan Brown | 655 cc819-820 (Link to this contribution)
Well, let’s see. Perhaps I would ensure that no deal was off the table, so that there would be no...
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Rupa Huq | 655 c820 (Link to this contribution)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the £33 million for something that never materialised—the phan...
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Alan Brown | 655 cc820-1 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Lady for highlighting yet another miserable failure, with more money being throw...
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Alan Brown | 655 cc821-2 (Link to this contribution)
Are we absolutely sure about that? Given the Transport Secretary’s ability to count, “A hae ma do...
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Tom Brake | 655 c822 (Link to this contribution)
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that according to reports what those lorries were mostly doing was si...
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Alan Brown | 655 c822 (Link to this contribution)
Well, at least the lorries were not polluting the air so much if the drivers were just sitting dr...
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Diana Johnson | 655 c822 (Link to this contribution)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. Does he share my concerns about the la...
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Alan Brown | 655 c822 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. I assume she is speaking in particular about ports i...
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Charlie Elphicke | 655 c822 (Link to this contribution)
I have listened to what the hon. Gentleman has been saying with great interest. He will understan...
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Alan Brown | 655 c822 (Link to this contribution)
We could argue that in principle the Department for Transport was trying to do the right things i...
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Charlie Elphicke | 655 cc822-3 (Link to this contribution)
I am sure the hon. Gentleman has, like me, read with interest the National Audit Office detailed ...
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Alan Brown | 655 c823 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for gamely trying to defend the Government position. Fair play to him;...
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Gavin Newlands | 655 c823 (Link to this contribution)
I also read the NAO report, which said that warnings were ignored in the “rushed…ineffective” and...
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Alan Brown | 655 cc823-4 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I spoke earlier about the systemic procurement fail...
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Mark Francois | 655 c824 (Link to this contribution)
At the risk of being called a Government nark—which I am not often being called at the moment—I w...
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Alan Brown | 655 c824 (Link to this contribution)
I feel as though I have more friends in here than I would have down the pub on a Friday night. Th...
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David Linden | 655 c824 (Link to this contribution)
I am sure my hon. Friend is aware that the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Franco...
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Alan Brown | 655 c824 (Link to this contribution)
That is a fair point—[Interruption.] It is also being pointed out that there are no Scottish Tori...
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Mark Francois | 655 c824 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
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Alan Brown | 655 c824 (Link to this contribution)
I will give way once more.
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Mark Francois | 655 c824 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his courtesy. Through him, I wanted to respond to the Labour gentl...
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John Bercow | 655 c825 (Link to this contribution)
Order. There has been a certain amount of frivolity on the matter of attendance at the debate, bu...
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Alan Brown | 655 c825 (Link to this contribution)
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
I shall return to the substantive point of procurement. I touched ea...
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Baroness Prentis of Banbury | 655 c825 (Link to this contribution)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the ending of Seaborne’s contract has not in fact cost the tax...
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Alan Brown | 655 c825 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention, which proves either that she does not listen or that ...
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Charlie Elphicke | 655 c825 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
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Alan Brown | 655 c825 (Link to this contribution)
This is getting tiresome but, yes, once more.
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Charlie Elphicke | 655 c825 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way one more time. I am glad to see Scottish MPs taking an ...
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Alan Brown | 655 c825 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for trying once more. The EU referendum was in June 2016 and, as I hav...
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Andy McDonald | 655 c826 (Link to this contribution)
Was the hon. Gentleman as surprised as I was to hear that no costs had been incurred in this? He ...
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Alan Brown | 655 cc826-7 (Link to this contribution)
I am actually very surprised at that. I put in a written parliamentary question asking how much t...
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Lord Grayling | 655 c827 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman confirm to the House that the probation service contracts are running aro...
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Alan Brown | 655 c827 (Link to this contribution)
I cannot confirm that. The right hon. Gentleman is quite comfortable with his legacy there, so I ...
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Gavin Newlands | 655 c827 (Link to this contribution)
I cannot believe that the Transport Secretary stood up and defended his probation service reforms...
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Alan Brown | 655 c827 (Link to this contribution)
I agree wholeheartedly. To be fair to the current Transport Secretary, he allowed VTEC, the Virgi...
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Patrick Grady | 655 c827 (Link to this contribution)
When hearing these lists about how the opposite of the Midas touch has affected so many aspects o...
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John Bercow | 655 c827 (Link to this contribution)
Order. The hon. Gentleman must confine himself to the subject matter of today’s debate, the terms...
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Alan Brown | 655 cc827-8 (Link to this contribution)
I will take your guidance, Mr Speaker, and perhaps spare the Transport Secretary any more of his ...
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Lord Grayling | 655 c828 (Link to this contribution)
As I have explained to the House on several occasions, the Government entered into contracts with...
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Wayne David | 655 c828 (Link to this contribution)
If the Secretary of State really believes that no deal should be an option, why on earth did the ...
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Lord Grayling | 655 c828 (Link to this contribution)
We have been preparing for a no-deal exit for months and months. There was a particularly reason,...
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Julian Knight | 655 c828 (Link to this contribution)
It is not just here that we see the Opposition parties not acting in the national interest, becau...
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Lord Grayling | 655 c828 (Link to this contribution)
Absolutely. All that we have heard for months is, “Why are the Government getting this wrong?” bu...
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Charlie Elphicke | 655 cc828-9 (Link to this contribution)
I have been reading the NAO report with considerable interest, and it says:
“Over the summe...
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Lord Grayling | 655 c829 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is absolutely right, although I must say that we started some of our planning well...
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Mark Francois | 655 c829 (Link to this contribution)
It is right that Government did indeed step up their no-deal preparations, as my right hon. Frien...
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Lord Grayling | 655 c829 (Link to this contribution)
I will leave my right hon. Friend to make his point, because I do not want to start debating disc...
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Lord Hanson of Flint | 655 c829 (Link to this contribution)
Is this not the key question, however? Did the right hon. Gentleman have advice from his official...
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Lord Grayling | 655 c829 (Link to this contribution)
We knew, in accelerating the procurement process, that there was a legal risk. That has been high...
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Lord Hanson of Flint | 655 c830 (Link to this contribution)
The right hon. Gentleman has said that there was a legal judgment that there was an element of ri...
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Lord Grayling | 655 c830 (Link to this contribution)
We took a collective decision, in the light of the legal advice, which was taken by me, by my acc...
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Peter Kyle | 655 c830 (Link to this contribution)
I have been listening very intently to what the right hon. Gentleman has been saying. The thing t...
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Lord Grayling | 655 c830 (Link to this contribution)
I very much regret the fact that we were taken to court. It was a risk that we acknowledged was t...
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Caroline Johnson | 655 c830 (Link to this contribution)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that proper preparation is an important role of Government, and t...
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Lord Grayling | 655 c830 (Link to this contribution)
I can absolutely confirm that, and I think it is absolutely right and proper that we took the ste...
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Andy McDonald | 655 c830 (Link to this contribution)
Does the Secretary of State not understand and accept that today he is laying bare the advice tha...
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Lord Grayling | 655 c830 (Link to this contribution)
We did not receive legal advice saying, “Do not do this.” We received legal advice saying that th...
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Lord Grayling | 655 c831 (Link to this contribution)
I am going to make a bit of progress, because I have given way many times.
Let me touch bri...
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Joanna Cherry | 655 c831 (Link to this contribution)
On that point, will the Secretary of State give way?
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Lord Grayling | 655 c831 (Link to this contribution)
It was a challenge to the procurement process, on which I said I took detailed legal advice at th...
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Joanna Cherry | 655 c831 (Link to this contribution)
Can the right hon. Gentleman confirm, just for the record, that not a single penny of the £33 mil...
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Lord Grayling | 655 c831 (Link to this contribution)
The deal that we have done is to pay for additional facilities at the border, to create a smoothe...
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Joanna Cherry | 655 c831 (Link to this contribution)
You are not telling the truth.
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John Bercow | 655 c832 (Link to this contribution)
Order. Look, I understand passions are high, but the hon. and learned Lady must not say that the ...
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John Bercow | 655 c832 (Link to this contribution)
I am not debating it.
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Joanna Cherry | 655 c832 (Link to this contribution)
I will withdraw it and I will speak later in full.
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John Bercow | 655 c832 (Link to this contribution)
I say to the hon. and learned Lady that I am chairing this debate. The hon. and learned Lady will...
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Lord Grayling | 655 c832 (Link to this contribution)
Mr Speaker, I simply reiterate: the settlement that we have reached with Eurotunnel is going to p...
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Charlie Elphicke | 655 c832 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my right hon. Friend for giving way one more time. He knows that the Port of Dover could ...
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Lord Grayling | 655 c832 (Link to this contribution)
I have to say that the management of the Port of Dover have been exemplary for the last few weeks...
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Lord Grayling | 655 cc832-3 (Link to this contribution)
I am going to make some progress.
I simply want to reiterate the point. We have taken the d...
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Andy McDonald | 655 c833 (Link to this contribution)
It is good to see the Transport Secretary finally in his place today, after I tried and failed to...
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Joanna Cherry | 655 c833 (Link to this contribution)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is at least an apparent conflict between the reported ou...
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Andy McDonald | 655 c833 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. and learned Lady makes an important point on an issue to which I will be returning in a ...
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Alan Brown | 655 c833 (Link to this contribution)
I tried to intervene on the Transport Secretary on this point. Was the hon. Gentleman as surprise...
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Andy McDonald | 655 c833 (Link to this contribution)
Yes, I was greatly surprised, but the hon. Gentleman has to concede that there had to be some jus...
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Jim Cunningham | 655 c833 (Link to this contribution)
Has my hon. Friend noticed that every time the Government get something wrong through their incom...
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Andy McDonald | 655 c833 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend makes a pertinent point. I am just astonished that people can hide behind what the...
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Neil Gray | 655 c834 (Link to this contribution)
I understand that the hon. Gentleman is about to turn to some of the questions he would like the ...
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Andy McDonald | 655 c834 (Link to this contribution)
That is a very good question, and I have raised the point myself. Those who were inquiring into t...
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Lord Grayling | 655 c834 (Link to this contribution)
I will give a very specific answer to that question: a Cabinet Committee.
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Andy McDonald | 655 c834 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for that clarification that it took a Cabinet Committee to make such a mess of thin...
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Joanna Cherry | 655 c834 (Link to this contribution)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it would be highly unusual in an out-of-court settlement for t...
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Andy McDonald | 655 c834 (Link to this contribution)
I absolutely agree with the hon. and learned Lady on that. Having been in practice for the thick ...
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Edward Leigh | 655 c835 (Link to this contribution)
Earlier, the hon. Gentleman said that the Secretary of State was being used as a human shield. Is...
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Andy McDonald | 655 c835 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that revealing clarification about the obvious chao...
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Peter Grant | 655 c835 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman clearly has a lot more experience than I do in matters of collective responsib...
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Andy McDonald | 655 c835 (Link to this contribution)
That is a fair observation. We have heard that the Secretary of State was prevented from undertak...
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Charlie Elphicke | 655 c835 (Link to this contribution)
Although I do not agree with the action that Eurotunnel took, it has to be said that this £33 mil...
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Andy McDonald | 655 c835 (Link to this contribution)
I say gently to the hon. Gentleman that that is a ridiculous proposition. Is he saying for a sing...
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Andy McDonald | 655 c836 (Link to this contribution)
I know the hon. Gentleman wants to get to his feet to retract that comment, so I will let him int...
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Charlie Elphicke | 655 c836 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman is making a facile point. My point is simply that the Secretary of State, conf...
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Andy McDonald | 655 c836 (Link to this contribution)
If the hon. Gentleman really thinks that expending £33 million when the Government did not want t...
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Andy McDonald | 655 c836 (Link to this contribution)
I am happy to take an intervention. Hopefully the Secretary of State can come to the Dispatch Box...
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Lord Grayling | 655 c836 (Link to this contribution)
Once again the hon. Gentleman has conveniently forgotten that 90% of these contracts for the thin...
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Andy McDonald | 655 c837 (Link to this contribution)
That is not the first time the Secretary of State has put up this false argument, as if 10% of th...
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Andy McDonald | 655 c837 (Link to this contribution)
No, I have already let the Secretary of State intervene on this point. [Hon. Members: “Oh!”] Come...
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Lord Grayling | 655 c837 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman cannot add up. This contract brought 8% of the equivalent, in total, with DFDS...
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Andy McDonald | 655 c837 (Link to this contribution)
I cannot add up? I really think that is pot calling kettle. The Secretary of State has not been a...
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Alison Thewliss | 655 c837 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman is making a really good point, but my constituents are also very cross about t...
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Andy McDonald | 655 cc837-8 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Lady makes a valid point. An awful lot of people are looking at these eye-watering sums ...
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Lord Grayling | 655 c838 (Link to this contribution)
This is really poor.
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Andy McDonald | 655 c838 (Link to this contribution)
The right hon. Gentleman says, “This is really poor” from a sedentary position, and I agree with ...
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Joanna Cherry | 655 c838 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman is giving an excellent speech. Does he agree that if the SNP Government in Edi...
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Andy McDonald | 655 cc838-9 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. and learned Lady is exactly right: it is one rule for the Tory party and another for eve...
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Charlie Elphicke | 655 c839 (Link to this contribution)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown) on securing this debate. H...
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Andy McDonald | 655 c839 (Link to this contribution)
In case the hon. Gentleman wants to cite my words accurately, I said that the litigation route wa...
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Charlie Elphicke | 655 c839 (Link to this contribution)
The Labour party failed completely to invest in many things, including border infrastructure, whe...
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Caroline Johnson | 655 c839 (Link to this contribution)
Did my hon. Friend note, as I did, that under the stewardship of the last Labour Government, the ...
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Charlie Elphicke | 655 c839 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. This Government have invested substantially in transport. I b...
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Alan Brown | 655 c840 (Link to this contribution)
I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s congratulations on securing this emergency debate, which suggests ...
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Charlie Elphicke | 655 c840 (Link to this contribution)
I do not represent the tunnel, which is in Folkestone and Hythe; I represent Dover. However, I ha...
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Edward Leigh | 655 c840 (Link to this contribution)
Away from the party games, we all know that the problems in the British transport system are so i...
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Charlie Elphicke | 655 c840 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my hon. Friend for making exactly the point that I am coming to. I set out how we needed ...
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Charlie Elphicke | 655 cc840-1 (Link to this contribution)
I have given way quite a lot, so I will make some progress.
The Secretary of State has work...
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Kevin Foster | 655 c841 (Link to this contribution)
I am listening to my hon. Friend’s speech with quite some interest. If he had to choose between t...
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Charlie Elphicke | 655 c841 (Link to this contribution)
Therein lies the heart of this debate. The Opposition are saying that the Secretary of State shou...
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Lilian Greenwood | 655 c841 (Link to this contribution)
Does the hon. Gentleman accept that our case is not that there should be no contingency planning,...
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Charlie Elphicke | 655 cc841-2 (Link to this contribution)
The difficulty with the hon. Lady’s point is that she and her party are trying to lay the blame o...
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Charlie Elphicke | 655 c842 (Link to this contribution)
I will give way one last time.
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Alan Brown | 655 c842 (Link to this contribution)
Given that the hon. Gentleman’s robust defence of the Transport Secretary is that the fault lies ...
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Charlie Elphicke | 655 c842 (Link to this contribution)
I am saying that the Secretary of State is not at fault, but neither are members of this Governme...
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Carol Monaghan | 655 cc842-4 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown) for securing this impor...
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John Bercow | 655 c843 (Link to this contribution)
Order. The hon. Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster) did not actually put in to speak.
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Kevin Foster | 655 c843 (Link to this contribution)
I have bobbed.
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John Bercow | 655 c843 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman may have bobbed, but I have just told him—
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John Bercow | 655 c845 (Link to this contribution)
Sit down. The hon. Gentleman did not put in to speak. He is signalling that he wishes to speak, a...
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Kevin Foster | 655 cc845-6 (Link to this contribution)
Thank you for your guidance, Mr Speaker. I will of course observe that courtesy. I would not wish...
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Joanna Cherry | 655 c846 (Link to this contribution)
Has the hon. Gentleman, like myself and the official Opposition spokesman, ever come across a com...
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Kevin Foster | 655 c846 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. and learned Lady for her intervention, which gives me an opportunity to confirm ...
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Alan Brown | 655 c846 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
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Kevin Foster | 655 c846 (Link to this contribution)
I will continue with my speech for a few moments.
This is not about just handing over £33 m...
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Alan Brown | 655 c846 (Link to this contribution)
The Secretary of State has argued that the £33 million will not be going directly to the Eurotunn...
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Kevin Foster | 655 c846 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. When we are investing in border security, we do ...
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Kevin Foster | 655 cc846-7 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman has had his answers to his points. He may not like the answers he gets, but he...
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Peter Grant | 655 c847 (Link to this contribution)
Has the hon. Gentleman read the alternative deal that was put forward by the Scottish Government ...
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Kevin Foster | 655 c847 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I did read the White Paper put out by the Scotti...
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Kevin Foster | 655 c847 (Link to this contribution)
If the hon. Gentleman is going to get up and say that it is not, that will be quite a surprise fo...
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Peter Grant | 655 c847 (Link to this contribution)
I take it from his non-answer that the hon. Gentleman has not bothered to read that document. Wha...
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Kevin Foster | 655 cc847-8 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. As I say, I naively thought that his position wa...
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Lilian Greenwood | 655 cc848-9 (Link to this contribution)
Shortly after the Secretary of State awarded contracts to ferry operators as part of his no-deal ...
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Andy McDonald | 655 c849 (Link to this contribution)
Does my hon. Friend share my concern that the settlement may amount to an entirely fresh procurem...
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Lilian Greenwood | 655 cc849-850 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend raises an important point. We would like to receive further information about the ...
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Joanna Cherry | 655 cc850-1 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to be called to speak in this debate. I want to start by dealing with the red herri...
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Peter Bottomley | 655 c851 (Link to this contribution)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Is it customary for the Member who is speaking to provoke a Mini...
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John Bercow | 655 c851 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman has his own interpretation of the chronology of events, which those attending ...
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Joanna Cherry | 655 cc851-2 (Link to this contribution)
It may have been a nice try, but I am not going to leave this one alone. I want to know how much ...
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Charlie Elphicke | 655 c852 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. and learned Lady give way?
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Joanna Cherry | 655 cc852-3 (Link to this contribution)
I will finish the chronology, and then I will give way.
That was on 9 January. Later, I put...
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Charlie Elphicke | 655 c853 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. and learned Lady give way?
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Joanna Cherry | 655 cc853-4 (Link to this contribution)
I will finish the chronology, and then I will give way.
Finally, I raised the point again o...
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Charlie Elphicke | 655 c854 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. and learned Lady for giving way, and I have been listening carefully to her subm...
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Joanna Cherry | 655 c854 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that, because he actually reinforces the point that I sou...
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Andy McDonald | 655 c854 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. and learned Lady is doing a brilliant job of exposing the facade that has been put up to...
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Joanna Cherry | 655 cc854-5 (Link to this contribution)
That is the bottom line. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right.
I am going to draw to a co...
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Wayne David | 655 cc855-6 (Link to this contribution)
What a farcical situation. It gives me no pleasure to say that this Government have become a laug...
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Tom Brake | 655 cc856-8 (Link to this contribution)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown) on securing the debate, an...
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John Bercow | 655 c857 (Link to this contribution)
Order. There are two remaining speakers. Just as a helpful guide to both hon. Members, the averag...
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Peter Grant | 655 cc857-9 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for the chance to speak in this debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member fo...
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Tom Brake | 655 c859 (Link to this contribution)
I agree that the explanation about medicines is entirely dubious. Does the hon. Gentleman agree t...
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Peter Grant | 655 cc859-861 (Link to this contribution)
Absolutely. The single biggest example of incompetence coupled with complacency—it must be said t...
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Drew Hendry | 655 cc861-2 (Link to this contribution)
It is a great pleasure to follow—well, everybody.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member ...
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Alan Brown | 655 c862 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is making a fine point. Does he share my surprise that when the Government have ef...
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Drew Hendry | 655 c862 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend, who, along with other colleagues here, has been at this since the beginning, has ...
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Andy McDonald | 655 c862 (Link to this contribution)
The point about the Transport Secretary’s intervention in his other lives is well illustrated by ...
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Drew Hendry | 655 cc862-3 (Link to this contribution)
I agree with the shadow Transport Secretary. It is indicative of the way in which the Transport S...
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Alan Brown | 655 cc863-4 (Link to this contribution)
Once again, I thank you, Mr Speaker, for granting this debate. I also thank all Members who have ...
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Lord Grayling | 655 c864 (Link to this contribution)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would just like to inform the House that the annex containing ...
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John Bercow | 655 c864 (Link to this contribution)
That is an extremely helpful point of order from the right hon. Gentleman, and I thank him. It is...
- Subjects
- Disclosure of information Contracts Accountability Costs Department for Transport Finance Drugs Freight Large goods vehicles Eurotunnel NHS Ports Procurement Channel ferries Brexit Seaborne Freight
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