I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, because it takes us to the heart of the Conservative position. What he has ignored throughout all his comments so far in the debate is that the National Assembly for Wales is a democratically elected institution. The point of...

I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, because it takes us to the heart of the Conservative position. What he has ignored throughout all his comments so far in the debate is that the National Assembly for Wales is a democratically elected institution. The point of...

I have listened carefully to the debate and I wonder whether the Minister can give me some assurances on procedure and on the role of draft legislation in particular. We have not yet discussed draft legislation in this debate, but it is important that we recognise that progress has been...

I have listened carefully to the debate and I wonder whether the Minister can give me some assurances on procedure and on the role of draft legislation in particular. We have not yet discussed draft legislation in this debate, but it is important that we recognise that progress has been...

I think that a Joint Committee approach has worked extremely well in the past, because it promotes a positive atmosphere of Assembly Members and Members of Parliament working together. I hope that that will develop as the process in the Bill develops. The position of the official Opposition confuses me....

I think that a Joint Committee approach has worked extremely well in the past, because it promotes a positive atmosphere of Assembly Members and Members of Parliament working together. I hope that that will develop as the process in the Bill develops. The position of the official Opposition confuses me....

I hear what the hon. Gentleman says. I do not regard the measure as the introduction of primary legislative powers by the back door. I do not support primary legislative powers for the Assembly. There has been an incremental process since the establishment of the National Assembly for Wales; for...

I hear what the hon. Gentleman says. I do not regard the measure as the introduction of primary legislative powers by the back door. I do not support primary legislative powers for the Assembly. There has been an incremental process since the establishment of the National Assembly for Wales; for...

The point about scrutiny is a valid one. That is the reason that I am so strongly in favour of Joint Committees of this place and the Assembly. That is a way of dealing with the relatively low number of Members in the Assembly. This is why I asked for...

The point about scrutiny is a valid one. That is the reason that I am so strongly in favour of Joint Committees of this place and the Assembly. That is a way of dealing with the relatively low number of Members in the Assembly. This is why I asked for...

Does my hon. Friend agree that the logic of the Opposition’s position is that even if we passed primary legislation to give the Assembly powers, as we did in the case of the fire authorities, for example, we would need to have a referendum to enable us to do so?

Does my hon. Friend agree that the logic of the Opposition’s position is that even if we passed primary legislation to give the Assembly powers, as we did in the case of the fire authorities, for example, we would need to have a referendum to enable us to do so?

Does the hon. Gentleman consider that the passage of the part 3 measures should mean that I, as a Member of Parliament from Wales, should have my power to participate in proceedings in this House reduced? Should part 3 mean that my votes here will count for less?

Does the hon. Gentleman consider that the passage of the part 3 measures should mean that I, as a Member of Parliament from Wales, should have my power to participate in proceedings in this House reduced? Should part 3 mean that my votes here will count for less?

I am most grateful for the reassurances that my hon. Friend the Minister has given about the importance of pre-legislative scrutiny. However, my concern is that there has been no reference whatever to a draft order being placed before Parliament before the Assembly considers it. Would it be possible for...

I am most grateful for the reassurances that my hon. Friend the Minister has given about the importance of pre-legislative scrutiny. However, my concern is that there has been no reference whatever to a draft order being placed before Parliament before the Assembly considers it. Would it be possible for...

I will take no lectures from the hon. Lady concerning the people of Wales, some of whom I represent. I should have thought that the hon. Lady, who has been in the House far longer than I, understood that the abolition of the corporate status of the Assembly is indeed...

I will take no lectures from the hon. Lady concerning the people of Wales, some of whom I represent. I should have thought that the hon. Lady, who has been in the House far longer than I, understood that the abolition of the corporate status of the Assembly is indeed...

In that case, why is the hon. Lady not calling for a referendum on the abolition of the corporate status of the Assembly?

In that case, why is the hon. Lady not calling for a referendum on the abolition of the corporate status of the Assembly?

It was two out of three.

It was two out of three.

For the hon. Gentleman’s information, Wrexham and Alyn and Deeside are not in the objective 1 area and do not receive grant aid, in contrast with areas of Shropshire that receive grant aid under EU regulations.

For the hon. Gentleman’s information, Wrexham and Alyn and Deeside are not in the objective 1 area and do not receive grant aid, in contrast with areas of Shropshire that receive grant aid under EU regulations.

The hon. Gentleman suggests that the Richard commission gave detailed consideration to relevant matters in Wales. A very important issue for his constituency and mine is the provision of public services from England to Welsh constituents. The Richard commission did not cover that in any detail at all—or can he...

The hon. Gentleman suggests that the Richard commission gave detailed consideration to relevant matters in Wales. A very important issue for his constituency and mine is the provision of public services from England to Welsh constituents. The Richard commission did not cover that in any detail at all—or can he...

The person who did most to deliver devolution in the United Kingdom was Margaret Thatcher. She alienated the people of Wales and Scotland so profoundly that she created the circumstances in 1997 that led to the setting up of the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. We know from history...

The person who did most to deliver devolution in the United Kingdom was Margaret Thatcher. She alienated the people of Wales and Scotland so profoundly that she created the circumstances in 1997 that led to the setting up of the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. We know from history...

I am not sure that the North Wales Regional Committee, as it currently functions, is the most effective way of integrating north Wales more closely with the operations of the Assembly. I believe in more devolution. Wales is a nation with different regions and they should have more control over...

I am not sure that the North Wales Regional Committee, as it currently functions, is the most effective way of integrating north Wales more closely with the operations of the Assembly. I believe in more devolution. Wales is a nation with different regions and they should have more control over...

I am very conscious of the relationship between England and Wales, England and Scotland, and England and the UK, because of the nature and position of my constituency, which I discuss regularly in the Chamber and will touch on in my speech. We have made progress with referendums on a...

I am very conscious of the relationship between England and Wales, England and Scotland, and England and the UK, because of the nature and position of my constituency, which I discuss regularly in the Chamber and will touch on in my speech. We have made progress with referendums on a...

The hon. Gentleman is describing particular circumstances. I do not agree with what he said earlier about linking waiting times to the price of operations, because I do not think that it was factually correct. I do not know the particular circumstances that he mentions, so I cannot address that...

The hon. Gentleman is describing particular circumstances. I do not agree with what he said earlier about linking waiting times to the price of operations, because I do not think that it was factually correct. I do not know the particular circumstances that he mentions, so I cannot address that...

The point is that the Secretary of State can already prevent the Assembly’s proposals from being implemented in legislation. That position will not change and that relationship is at the core of today’s proposals, so as an argument for a referendum, the hon. Gentleman’s point is completely without merit.

The point is that the Secretary of State can already prevent the Assembly’s proposals from being implemented in legislation. That position will not change and that relationship is at the core of today’s proposals, so as an argument for a referendum, the hon. Gentleman’s point is completely without merit.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the great successes of the devolution settlement since 2001 has been the development of consideration of legislation by means of pre-legislative scrutiny through joint committees of the Assembly and the House of Commons? We have heard no call from the Conservatives...

Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the great successes of the devolution settlement since 2001 has been the development of consideration of legislation by means of pre-legislative scrutiny through joint committees of the Assembly and the House of Commons? We have heard no call from the Conservatives...

I thank the hon. Lady, and welcome her to her post. The people of Wales did have a vote, in May 2005, when they returned 29 Labour Members of Parliament in Wales. In the manifesto on which we all stood, we made clear that we would present proposals for the...

I thank the hon. Lady, and welcome her to her post. The people of Wales did have a vote, in May 2005, when they returned 29 Labour Members of Parliament in Wales. In the manifesto on which we all stood, we made clear that we would present proposals for the...