I have no reason to doubt what the hon. Gentleman said about the many people who have been charged and given life imprisonment, or even spent 10 years in prison. Why, therefore, do we need this piece of legislation?

I have no reason to doubt what the hon. Gentleman said about the many people who have been charged and given life imprisonment, or even spent 10 years in prison. Why, therefore, do we need this piece of legislation?

Indeed, Mrs Heal. I was giving the example of someone who deserted without seeing action at all, although he had been a professional soldier for five years. On the argument advanced by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington, a maximum penalty must cover all eventualities. The Minister asked him...

Indeed, Mrs Heal. I was giving the example of someone who deserted without seeing action at all, although he had been a professional soldier for five years. On the argument advanced by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington, a maximum penalty must cover all eventualities. The Minister asked him...

Four months.

Four months.

I disagree. The measure does not say the sentence for desertion will automatically be life imprisonment, but up to life imprisonment, so there is flexibility in sentencing. The idea has been sold that somehow if one deserts one will automatically get life imprisonment, and that is not the case.

I disagree. The measure does not say the sentence for desertion will automatically be life imprisonment, but up to life imprisonment, so there is flexibility in sentencing. The idea has been sold that somehow if one deserts one will automatically get life imprisonment, and that is not the case.

In conflict, if a platoon were reliant on an individual to hold a particular post and that individual decided to desert that post, putting at risk the lives of everyone in the platoon, would it not be important to have a severe consequence?

In conflict, if a platoon were reliant on an individual to hold a particular post and that individual decided to desert that post, putting at risk the lives of everyone in the platoon, would it not be important to have a severe consequence?

Four months, I am reminded, and some of us were more assiduous than others—[Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) says from a sedentary position that he would have deserted. In the present circumstances, the Government would have welcomed that. When I saw the amendments...

Four months, I am reminded, and some of us were more assiduous than others—[Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) says from a sedentary position that he would have deserted. In the present circumstances, the Government would have welcomed that. When I saw the amendments...

Does my hon. Friend agree that there is a difference between a legal occupation and an illegal occupation?

Does my hon. Friend agree that there is a difference between a legal occupation and an illegal occupation?

That is an argument that can be had around a specific campaign such as the one in Iraq. I am grateful to my hon. Friend, but he knows that we disagree on that. The important point is that if people have agreed to serve in Her Majesty’s armed forces, there...

That is an argument that can be had around a specific campaign such as the one in Iraq. I am grateful to my hon. Friend, but he knows that we disagree on that. The important point is that if people have agreed to serve in Her Majesty’s armed forces, there...

My hon. Friend served long and hard on the Committee so he knows the Bill inside out, poor man. The amendment would maintain the two-year sanction, but not that of life imprisonment, which appears inhumane and barbaric.

My hon. Friend served long and hard on the Committee so he knows the Bill inside out, poor man. The amendment would maintain the two-year sanction, but not that of life imprisonment, which appears inhumane and barbaric.

The hon. Gentleman is right on that particular issue. It is just as well that the amendment will not have the intended effects. If British servicemen were to carry out perfectly legal actions overseas, such as actions agreed by United Nations resolution, and were to conduct themselves entirely in accordance...

The hon. Gentleman is right on that particular issue. It is just as well that the amendment will not have the intended effects. If British servicemen were to carry out perfectly legal actions overseas, such as actions agreed by United Nations resolution, and were to conduct themselves entirely in accordance...

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Bill benchmarks life imprisonment in statute?

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Bill benchmarks life imprisonment in statute?

I congratulate the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) on the measured way in which he has moved the amendments. I have some sympathy with where he is coming from, but I find myself unable to support them. They do not have quite the effect that the hon....

I congratulate the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) on the measured way in which he has moved the amendments. I have some sympathy with where he is coming from, but I find myself unable to support them. They do not have quite the effect that the hon....

The Bill was presented as allowing the updating of service law, which gives us the opportunity to rid ourselves of some of the punitive punishments in existing law, one of which is life imprisonment. I would welcome the hon. Gentleman’s views on clause 40, which also introduces life imprisonment for...

The Bill was presented as allowing the updating of service law, which gives us the opportunity to rid ourselves of some of the punitive punishments in existing law, one of which is life imprisonment. I would welcome the hon. Gentleman’s views on clause 40, which also introduces life imprisonment for...

My hon. Friend’s point goes to the kernel of the argument. In the armed forces the ultimate sanction must be there for the sake of military discipline in very difficult situations. As I have said, there is a great difference between conscripted armed forces and those who have volunteered and...

My hon. Friend’s point goes to the kernel of the argument. In the armed forces the ultimate sanction must be there for the sake of military discipline in very difficult situations. As I have said, there is a great difference between conscripted armed forces and those who have volunteered and...

We are being presented with two options—one is a maximum of two years, and the other is a maximum of life imprisonment. I have agreed as a general point of principle that life imprisonment would be over the top in any circumstances that I can envisage, but the only alternative...

We are being presented with two options—one is a maximum of two years, and the other is a maximum of life imprisonment. I have agreed as a general point of principle that life imprisonment would be over the top in any circumstances that I can envisage, but the only alternative...

indicated dissent.

indicated dissent.

Well, I will give him an example of where he is fence-sitting. Clause 8 provides for a life sentence for the offence of desertion. Only every now and then does a Bill come before us to amend the Armed Forces Acts. He might say that this is no different from...

Well, I will give him an example of where he is fence-sitting. Clause 8 provides for a life sentence for the offence of desertion. Only every now and then does a Bill come before us to amend the Armed Forces Acts. He might say that this is no different from...

No; the Bill does not change the position. Existing statute allows a sentence of up to life imprisonment. I understand the point made by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington—that the Bill might have been an opportunity completely to modernise the legislation—but I do not accept the argument that...

No; the Bill does not change the position. Existing statute allows a sentence of up to life imprisonment. I understand the point made by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington—that the Bill might have been an opportunity completely to modernise the legislation—but I do not accept the argument that...

That was a very interesting contribution by the hon. Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey), and a typically Liberal one—it was a fence-sitting exercise.

That was a very interesting contribution by the hon. Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey), and a typically Liberal one—it was a fence-sitting exercise.

On a point of order, Mrs. Heal. We have some very quirky practices in the House, one of which has brought about the collapse of amendments to the Bill in Committee. A number of hon. Members wanted to table amendments, but because the House rose very early at about 1.30...

On a point of order, Mrs. Heal. We have some very quirky practices in the House, one of which has brought about the collapse of amendments to the Bill in Committee. A number of hon. Members wanted to table amendments, but because the House rose very early at about 1.30...