A great many were on the Conservative Benches in the House of Lords. I shall pass on the hon. Gentleman's compliments to his noble Friends there.

A great many were on the Conservative Benches in the House of Lords. I shall pass on the hon. Gentleman's compliments to his noble Friends there.

I simply do not accept that. The movers of that amendment were very clear that the words meant something; they were intended to make a conviction very difficult indeed. That was the purpose.

I simply do not accept that. The movers of that amendment were very clear that the words meant something; they were intended to make a conviction very difficult indeed. That was the purpose.

I suggest that neither is the case—that work was already pretty substantial when I was in opposition. The truth is that sentencing practice is complicated and is bound to be so, but I found that, without any other information, neither the public nor sentencers had a clear idea of the...

I suggest that neither is the case—that work was already pretty substantial when I was in opposition. The truth is that sentencing practice is complicated and is bound to be so, but I found that, without any other information, neither the public nor sentencers had a clear idea of the...

It is easy to read.

It is easy to read.

That is your fault.

That is your fault.

Under the recently developed arrangements, the Select Committee on Justice has a specific role to play in examining proposed sentencing guidelines. How will Parliament be involved in this important process under the arrangements now being proposed?

Under the recently developed arrangements, the Select Committee on Justice has a specific role to play in examining proposed sentencing guidelines. How will Parliament be involved in this important process under the arrangements now being proposed?

Ensuring the effectiveness of sentencing will be an important role of the sentencing council. The majority of the council's members will be judges or magistrates. It will have a permanent judicial majority, which is one important reassurance. The council will have an enhanced role in collecting data and monitoring the...

Ensuring the effectiveness of sentencing will be an important role of the sentencing council. The majority of the council's members will be judges or magistrates. It will have a permanent judicial majority, which is one important reassurance. The council will have an enhanced role in collecting data and monitoring the...

May I come at the problem from a slightly different angle? There are already magistrates who are not able to sentence people to community sentences when that might be appropriate because the lack of resources from the Government has made certain courses unavailable. For example, in Staffordshire, magistrates have been...

May I come at the problem from a slightly different angle? There are already magistrates who are not able to sentence people to community sentences when that might be appropriate because the lack of resources from the Government has made certain courses unavailable. For example, in Staffordshire, magistrates have been...

It is part of the same issue. New proposals, wonderful though they might be, could result in increased demand for prison places, so the next question is whether the money is available to pay for them. That is a sensible way to proceed. The improved collection of data would also...

It is part of the same issue. New proposals, wonderful though they might be, could result in increased demand for prison places, so the next question is whether the money is available to pay for them. That is a sensible way to proceed. The improved collection of data would also...

The hon. and learned Gentleman has just heard something about it, but he was not listening to the views of his party's former shadow Justice Secretary. What we are seeking to do is to reach a consensus on what he was proposing.

The hon. and learned Gentleman has just heard something about it, but he was not listening to the views of his party's former shadow Justice Secretary. What we are seeking to do is to reach a consensus on what he was proposing.

It is common sense.

It is common sense.

The hon. and learned Gentleman does nothing for his case with his gross exaggeration of the provisions. The measures follow the Walport-Thomas review, which was rather widely welcomed, as I recall. There was then a period of consultation. The Government published their detailed response, which effectively accepted what the highly...

The hon. and learned Gentleman does nothing for his case with his gross exaggeration of the provisions. The measures follow the Walport-Thomas review, which was rather widely welcomed, as I recall. There was then a period of consultation. The Government published their detailed response, which effectively accepted what the highly...

With his characteristic skill, the Secretary of State reduces a seismic change in the relationship between the state and the citizen to something utterly benign. Is it not the case that a great deal of the information that the state acquires from individuals is acquired for specific purposes that Parliament...

With his characteristic skill, the Secretary of State reduces a seismic change in the relationship between the state and the citizen to something utterly benign. Is it not the case that a great deal of the information that the state acquires from individuals is acquired for specific purposes that Parliament...

If I may, I want to make some progress, as I have already been on my feet for getting on for 50 minutes. The Bill also deals with better supervision of knives by the court, which has also been drawn to the attention of the House, and with the issue...

If I may, I want to make some progress, as I have already been on my feet for getting on for 50 minutes. The Bill also deals with better supervision of knives by the court, which has also been drawn to the attention of the House, and with the issue...

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

The hon. Gentleman and I have discussed that and, if we can find a way through it—he acknowledges privately that there is a way through—we will do so. We all understand the point.

The hon. Gentleman and I have discussed that and, if we can find a way through it—he acknowledges privately that there is a way through—we will do so. We all understand the point.

In extreme cases—I can think of cases in which I myself signed public interest immunity certificates— there would be a grave risk of death for some individuals if certain categories of information were to be held by more than a handful of people. That point cannot be trivialised.

In extreme cases—I can think of cases in which I myself signed public interest immunity certificates— there would be a grave risk of death for some individuals if certain categories of information were to be held by more than a handful of people. That point cannot be trivialised.

I shall give way first to my right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley, North and Sefton, East (Mr. Howarth), and then to other hon. Friends.

I shall give way first to my right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley, North and Sefton, East (Mr. Howarth), and then to other hon. Friends.

I do not deny the temptation, but it is for that reason that under clause 11(1)(b):"““The Secretary of State may certify an investigation… into a person's death if of the opinion that… no other measures would be adequate to prevent the matter being made public.””" That is very explicit language...

I do not deny the temptation, but it is for that reason that under clause 11(1)(b):"““The Secretary of State may certify an investigation… into a person's death if of the opinion that… no other measures would be adequate to prevent the matter being made public.””" That is very explicit language...

There were indeed such trials, but it is also the case that in such trials, some of the evidence that was otherwise material was denied to the jury altogether by the exercise of a public interest immunity certificate. As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South...

There were indeed such trials, but it is also the case that in such trials, some of the evidence that was otherwise material was denied to the jury altogether by the exercise of a public interest immunity certificate. As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South...