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Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism

As became apparent from the interventions on the Minister, it is inevitable that in dealing with such measures an element of trust must be placed in the way in which the Government have gathered information and the use to which they wish to put it. The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) made a point about the transparency of the process and the provenance of information in terms of the nationality of the agency concerned. I hope that as the process evolves—we can expect to deal with more such orders in the months and years to come—the Government will consider that approach. Liberal Democrat Members do not take substantive issue with the substance of the order, although we have some reservations, to which I shall turn. As my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) said in business questions earlier, we have strong reservations about the manner in which the Government have introduced these measures. Introducing an order listing 15 specified organisations in a circumstance where debate is limited and there is no opportunity for amendment could have put the House in a very difficult situation. As it happens, we do not have any substantive information that would contradict the information that the Minister has helpfully supplied in her letter, but that is a happy circumstance and would not necessarily apply in every case. When I first approached this matter, I shared the unease that was expressed by the hon. Member for Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr (Adam Price) about the listing of the Islamic Jihad Union. Indeed, I continue to feel uneasy about the inclusion of that group among the list of 15. If it had been the subject of a specific order, there would have been greater opportunity for the House to scrutinise its inclusion. I hope that nobody outside the House will be in any doubt about the view that we take of the Karimov regime, which is entirely despicable and despotic. The Minister’s PPS, the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Stephen Pound), recently did a brave and laudable thing in going there and bringing to the attention of the regime the revulsion that we all feel. I know that the hon. Gentleman and I share a concern about the practice of the Uzbek Government with regard to the operation of the death penalty. The Government’s signals to the Uzbek regime have not always been helpful. I am thinking especially of their treatment of my old friend, the former ambassador to Uzbekistan, Craig Murray, who has done us all a great service in graphically highlighting the appalling human rights record of the Uzbekistan Government. It is often said that because of the challenge posed by al-Qaeda the rules are different and are constantly rewritten. Al-Qaeda is a diffuse and ever-changing organisation. Even with the changes, to which the Minister referred, that intend to ensure that successor organisation are caught by orders such as the one that we are considering and that an organisation could not avoid them simply by changing its name, it will be difficult for the Government to establish that an organisation is a successor organisation. We must recognise that orders can take us only so far in dealing with the challenge that is posed to our country. We must also acknowledge that we require something more than proscription of organisations such as those on the list. We now need resources so that we can play the individual rather than the team. The order is useful inasmuch as it may prevent attacks by terrorist organisations here. We should neither underestimate nor overstate its importance, whether the implications of the organisations’ actions are felt in this country or elsewhere in the world. No one should be under the illusion that the order is anything other than a small weapon in the armoury in the fight against terrorism. I believe that we can expect a great deal more in the future. We are not minded to oppose the Government but I hope that, as the procedure becomes more frequently used, they will listen to what hon. Members have said today.