---

Charities Bill [HL]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his response. I put to him that we are just fudging the issue. One day a Labour government will have to sort it out. I am grateful to other Members of the House. I am under no illusions that my amendment would find much support in the establishment, whether it be in the department, the commission, the independent sector or the House, but I keep on pressing it, because I believe strongly that I am right and that the matter should be dealt with. I tell the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market, that we can carry on sparring over the issue for ever, but it must be sorted out at some stage. However, it was the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, on the Front Bench, who interested me by talking about the need to make a political decision. A political decision has been made. That is why nothing is changing. The political decision is to be found in the debate that surrounds the introduction of the Education Act 1973, which transferred the entire responsibility in these areas from the Secretary of State to the commission. That was a political decision taken to avoid interference by government in this area of education. The noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, also suggested that he might be witnessing a bit of a fudge. I am grateful to him for the way that he has valiantly fought on the question of public benefit through all stages of the Bill. I hope that people outside have noticed the notable part that he played during those proceedings. I hope that his views on the effectiveness of the commission in education stand the test of time. He believes that they will. I do not. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 5 [Special provisions about recreational charities, sports clubs etc.]: