---

Army Barracks (Deaths)

: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I shall come in a few moments to some of the points about the family's view of the investigations. The other element of the training and supervisory regime to which attention has been drawn was the proper ratio between trainees and those in charge of their supervision. Blake notes that that ratio was at times only 1:60. In 2004, the then Secretary of State for Defence said that a target of 1:38 was being achieved. It would be helpful if the Minister told us whether that ratio is being achieved. Is it being achieved at all locations, through the day and night? If we have not yet achieved it, what progress is being made towards attaining it? Regarding the investigations, however well we improve and implement recruitment and training, and whatever the level of supervision, it is inevitable that there will be deaths in Army barracks in future. Some will be accidental and some will not. When they occur, we need to ensure that the right processes are in place, so that families feel that their concerns are being addressed and the investigatory process should be as open as possible. Comments have been made about who has primacy in an investigation. Blake drew attention to that, and a protocol was signed on 7 November that made the position clear. However, given that there were already protocols in place that did not seem to be well understood by at least some police forces, it would be helpful to know what follow-up work is taking place to ensure that the protocol of 7 November is well understood in the armed forces and constabularies throughout the country. We must ensure that such information is properly communicated and well understood. If any such tragedies occur in future, that protocol should be in place right from the beginning. During any future investigation, the most important thing will be that families are kept fully informed and there must be transparency and openness. If that does not take place from the beginning and is neglected, as it was at Deepcut, families will suspect that there is something they are not being told and that there is a cover-up. I suspect that once they have that impression, nothing that can be done in the case of their loved ones can ever completely remove that sense of suspicion. I suspect that that is the situation now. I am not sure that anything can be done to satisfy completely the families of the four soldiers who lost their lives at Deepcut—a point to which one or two Members have alluded. In his statement about the Deepcut review, the Minister of State for the Armed Forces said that the Armed Forces Bill would provide the opportunity to implement a number of those changes.