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Democracy: POWER Inquiry

My Lords, this has been an extraordinarily good debate. This morning I thought, ““Oh, my goodness, I have to sit there for a very long time””, and I have ended up, in a way, wishing that we could go on—although I would like to eat something. I have just been told: ““Steady on!””. This debate needs to continue not only formally in your Lordships’ House, but, I suspect, informally among those of us who I would probably call anoraks, but for whom I have a deep affection, and among all noble Lords and people who have been engaged on this issue. I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, who has energy that surpasses practically anyone else in your Lordships’ House. Perhaps I know better than most how much time the noble Lord puts into everything that I am involved in, and I know that he does many other things. It was incredibly important to raise this matter. Although I would expect the Liberal Democrat Benches to be full because of the nature of this debate, I recognise, none the less, the commitment and energy of those Benches—particularly in local politics. I also pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Kennedy. Whether you get brickbats or accolades for the work of the Power commission, it has inspired people to continue the debate. That in itself is well worth the effort involved. I pay tribute, as did the noble Lords, Lord Smith of Clifton and Lord Shutt, to the Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust and the Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust for the financial resources that were made available. It is an excellent example of the amazing work that they do to enhance our democracy. I pay tribute to the two maiden speeches. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, spoke about his antipathy to government and authority. I can assure the noble Lord that he will be well happy here. I will no doubt be one of the people who reap the benefits of that. Just to prove that we work at speed, I actually got the Electoral Commission to do some work after the noble Lord spoke about overseas voters. It wants me to say that although there are a small number of them, the commission is encouraged that it has been able to double the number of overseas voters over time. As the noble Lord will know, it is committed to trying to do more to encourage people who are entitled to vote to do so. Perhaps the noble Lord will instigate such a debate in this House and I hope that I have the privilege of debating with him. I also pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Lee of Trafford, who comes from the correct side of the Pennines, as far as I am concerned—as the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, knows well. I would agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lee, that 80 per cent of us might tick the same boxes in a questionnaire if we all sat down and listened, but I would be fascinated by the 20 per cent who did not. I congratulate the noble Lords on their maiden speeches. Both contributed very well to today’s debate and I am extremely grateful to them. I know and remember how hard it can be to make such a speech. I have thrown away the speech that the officials gave me. They are aware of that and have said that they will listen with enormous interest to what I might say. I wanted to say something about the use of the word ““complacency””, because a number of noble Lords have rightly said that we should not be complacent. I could not agree more. I have to say that I did not sense any complacency here. I disagreed violently with some of the things that were said but agreed with many of the points made. But no noble Lord who has spoken has been complacent. My noble friend Lady Kennedy referred to the contributions of people all over the country; there is no complacency, but there is an issue that we have to address and noble Lords have rightly indicated the importance of that. For me, three themes emerged, although many things were said: the involvement of the citizen—the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, pointed to the differences between the consumer and the citizen and I agree very much with what she said about her extraordinary experiences in this field; the role of government, the power of the executive and the role of local government in its relationship to central government; and, of course, institutions, and the relationship between institutions, whether they constitute the media or the House of Lords. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, that we are lucky to have a democracy. In many parts of the world, citizens would give a huge amount to be able to have this kind of debate about how to ensure that democracy works. For too many, it is a dream. For us, it is a reality that we know we must cherish and make sure that it is as robust and as strong as possible. The subject is always worth putting in that context. The noble Lord, Lord Shutt, is living proof that politics is not, as he said, ““knackered””. I apologise profusely for interrupting him, which was a terrible thing to do—and I did it twice. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, also leapt in. I was trying to say that when I was Minister with responsibility for Sure Start, we put local government right at the heart of that programme. For the very reasons that both noble Lords will know, that is absolutely critical to its continuing success and to its bedding down. However, I do not apologise for sometimes needing to engage local groups outside local government. Not all local government has been successful in engaging local people, particularly mums, because there is not a natural way in which they engage. The combination of the role of local government and the role of local groups coming together—particularly young mothers—is very important. I apologise for interrupting the noble Lord, Lord Shutt. I should not have done so. The noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, spoke about £100 million, and the money that he knows about. At that point my noble friend Lord Evans of Temple Guiting said that, in his experience, that is peanuts. Clearly, my noble friend is used to dealing with much greater amounts of money that I possibly could. The final thing I want to say by way of introduction is that I have been very aware of how many noble Lords started off in a different party from the one to which they now belong. I wondered about asking for a quick show of hands of those who, like me, have stayed in the party in which they started, but I shall not. That is an interesting proposition. My noble friend Lord Howarth of Newport raised an interesting point on the big ideas and the big debates. When one considers what is happening to democracy, one can be concerned that we have lost the big ideas. There is no big divide any more; it is more about the better management of the current system. Those huge ideological changes have gone, as has the ideological fight between socialism and capitalism. However, I believe there is a real need for us to engage in some of those big political debates. I have already mentioned democracy in the rest of the world, but there are still issues about freedom, democracy and equality for many citizens in the world and there are still issues of equality for citizens in our own country. Other big debates concern how we tackle goals that we may share on education, health and environmental issues. We need to ensure that we do not lose the ability to debate those big topics so that people on different sides of the argument are engaged. Perhaps, as political parties, those are matters that we should consider. The noble Lord, Lord Maclennan of Rogart, talked in a rather negative way on some points. However, I agreed with him about the role of my honourable friend Tony Wright, whom I regard very highly, and the role of the Public Administration Select Committee. I think it is doing an extremely good job. In my discussions with him, I did not get the impression that he has been banging his head all the time. Of course, we do not always agree with him, but I believe in the Select Committee process. He is a very good example of the process working, as is the right honourable friend of the noble Lord, Alan Beith of the Constitutional Affairs Select Committee. We must not forget what has happened in Wales and Scotland, to which the noble Lord did not refer, and the work done in Northern Ireland. There is also the Freedom of Information Act, the Human Rights Act and constitutional reform. Although noble Lords may wish us to go further, and may worry about those pieces of legislation not being as robust as they would like, none the less, they are achievements of which we should all be proud, but especially this Government. What went through my mind as the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, was speaking was that I have got one like you at home. I do not for a second underestimate the noble Lord because he has a huge reputation. I agreed with what the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, said about the approach. The noble Lord knows that I was very much looking forward to listening to what he said as it was very important. As my noble friend knows, it is important that all the work that is done also has it critics, who are able to say, ““Yes, but perhaps you should think about this””, and so on. The issue about participative versus representative democracy is probably very central to how we take this forward. I shall talk about the citizen consumer debate, important points on local democracy and how we deal with it. In his article in response to the Power report, Peter Riddell spoke of treacherous ground, which essentially is what was being said about the ““Today”” programme and how people will come up with rather extreme examples, whether it is phone-ins or instant polls on television or whatever. I think they were described as ““all the usual suspects””. One cannot achieve democracy in that way as one will simply have interest groups that dominate. I also agree, however, that some of the work I was involved in 15 years ago with Planning for Real, where you worked with local communities to design what their communities ought to be, the work of schools’ councils and representatives, and some of the fantastic work around community development—mainly in the voluntary sector—have been real examples of participatory work: real people in real communities working out what works for them. In my experience, both as a chair of governors and chair of a health authority, it is sometimes difficult to get people to participate unless something is going terribly wrong. If you threaten to close an accident and emergency unit, you can fill your halls. Some noble Lords will remember those fantastic school AGMs where you get three people if you are lucky; but if there is a problem, there are all in there. In a way, we used to approach it by saying that it probably meant that things were going okay. We must approach participation recognising that it is not going to work for its own sake. People must feel that there is a real benefit. We know that when people look at politicians, they look for qualities like honesty and strength. They are not looking for ideology. They look at who we are: ““people who stick up for people like us””. They want us to both listen and lead. They are saying that the people involved in politics need to lead, but they also want them to listen. If the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth was talking about his own congregation, that would not be very different from the way that the congregation of the Church of England would regard the role of the Bishop. They want you to listen to what they say and what they feel strongly about, but they also want you to lead. People make up their minds on the basis of trust, not on the intricacies of political proposals. I also agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lee, about people’s experience of local politicians. When people meet them and get involved, their experiences are often quite different. A lot of MPs and local councillors have had that experience of becoming real people in their eyes. I suppose it all boils down to something my husband has said in a couple of articles: it is better to have fallible human beings with all their frailties than regiments of local speak-your-weight machines. I guess that probably sums up, for me, what we are trying to achieve. Where do I think we can make changes, and why do I think this is a critical part of this debate? Campaigning styles have been mentioned a number of times. How do political parties, both locally and nationally, get out there, reach people and address them? That is a fundamental part of what is coming out of the conversations with the Power commission. I agree with what my noble friend Lord Gould said about the role of the internet, the need to get involved with people and how the young are talking to each other. I think some noble Lords have teenagers at home, and they will know that a whole conversation is conducted all evening via this fantastic machine, without anybody actually saying a word. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, looks completely and utterly horrified at that prospect, which is another conversation we have had before.