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House of Lords: Reform

My Lords, the other place has voted strongly for a fully elected House and less convincingly for an 80 per cent elected one. But has it really thought through the consequences? I wish to focus on five key areas: first, the powers of the reformed Chamber; secondly, the composition; thirdly, the form of election; fourthly, the cost of the change; and, finally, my personal reform thoughts. I do not agree with the other place or official Conservative Party policy that we should have a fully or predominantly elected upper House. The excellent Cunningham report on conventions, as the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, said earlier, made the following point clearly in paragraph 61. If the composition of the reformed Chamber changes to an elected House, the Members would wish to review its powers. Elected Members of a reformed Chamber would want more powers than the existing House. This whole subject of powers should be part of any Bill to reform the composition before the reformed Chamber gets going, otherwise there will major scope for deadlock between the two Houses. If we are to have an elected reformed Chamber, does the other place realise that it may become much more assertive, like the US Senate? Elected Members could well demand major changes, such as the removal of the Salisbury convention, abolition of the Parliament Acts, the ability to amend orders and to vote them down more regularly, more aggressive behaviour in regard to ping-pong and greater powers in connection with Bills starting in the Lords. Do Members in the other place realise that elected Members of a reformed Chamber could well focus on increasing their powers with respect to financial legislation? In the USA, the Senate is equal to Congress with regard to money Bills. As Woodrow Wilson wrote: "““The Senate’s right to amend [money Bills] has been allowed the widest possible scope. The upper house may add to them what it pleases; may go altogether outside of their original provisions and tack to them entirely new features of legislation, altering not only the amounts but even the objects of expenditure, and making out of the materials sent them by the popular chamber measures of an almost totally new character””." The approval of both the US Congress and Senate is required for a revenue Bill to become law. I can see many advantages of the USA political process with regard to finance Bills and would like to adopt them in the current House of Lords. We have the ludicrous situation in the UK where many parts of our finance Bills are not scrutinised by either House, which makes for bad law, and a change to this system is overdue. But would the other place be happy with that, because it might well happen? Elected members might wish to increase the reformed Chamber’s power by following another US Senate convention. The US Government, as I understand it, are not able to ratify treaties without the Senate’s consent. Perhaps we should extend that to ratifying overseas wars. In the USA, the President cannot make important appointments such as ambassadors, members of the federal judiciary, including the Supreme Court, and members of the Cabinet, without the advice and consent of the Senate. On composition and associated issues, in table 7 of the White Paper, the current figure for the House is 732 Members. The table assumes that no less than 299, or 41 per cent, of Members will have retired, resigned or died by 2014. Given that the average annual number of deaths since 2000 is, according to my noble friend Lord Selsdon, 20, that figure extrapolated means160 will die by 2014. The Government are expecting the remaining 140 or so to resign. Is that realistic and what do the Government plan to do financially for those who resign? Should that not be extended to those who lost their seats under the House of Lords Act 1999? Let us assume that none of the 140 mentioned above wishes to retire, which is a strong possibility.We could still have a reformed Chamber of over700 Members for a long time to come. Another issue with regard to composition that concerns me is how the proposed new elected Members represent their constituencies. Under paragraph 7.95, the White Paper says that the simplest approach is to use the regions used for elections to the European Parliament. We have currently 78 MEPs. We will have 540 elected Peers under the White Paper’s 100 per cent elected proposals. Doing the mathematics, for example, for the European south-east region of the UK you will have 69 Members of the reformed Chamber. But who are they representing? Will MPs be happy with 69 new Members stomping around their constituencies? The Scottish experience, as disclosed by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, tells us that local MPs are distinctly unhappy with MSPs overlapping on to their territories. The 100 per cent elected option has failed to mention the Bishops. Can I ask the Minister what is the position of the Church of England if all the Bishops are removed? If there is to be a change—and is this really necessary?—I believe that the 26 should constitute more of a multi-faith mix, and this number should be appointed. The problem of the nature of who the new Members represent is compounded by the form of election preferred by Jack Straw. It is the partially open regional list system. However disguised, this is an electoral method that strengthens the hold of political parties on the Chamber. The partially open list system proposed allows electors to make some changes to the order of candidates, but most electors and even the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor on the Floor of the House recently, find understanding the system difficult. Indeed, I see great scope for disagreement on the form of the voting system in the other place. The people who would be put forward for election would be on party lists and would not necessarily be those with the greatest ability. To replicate the Commons’ lack of experience outside politics in the reformed Chamber would in my view be a big mistake. Are the electorate really going to give their vote to any candidate to be in a legislature for 15 years? I would like to be proved wrong, but I cannot imagine a very high turnout. This does not appear to be an obvious recipe for generating a mandate that will enhance popular confidence in the second Chamber. Some commentators have suggested that a better proposal might be the Danish list system which allows parties to choose between closed, semi-open and fully open lists. By leaving it to each party to decide which option to use, it would be seen which party is most willing to let voter choice override party management. I turn now to the subject of cost. According to a press release from the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, he estimates that the cost of the proposed reform of the House of Lords will be more than £2 billion. Unlike the Government’s dismissal of his figures, I find them eminently plausible. The assumption that each Member of the reformed Chamber will cost one third less than a Commons Member seems sound. He takes into account the saving on fewer life Peers, redundancy packages and the cost of additional accommodation. Does the Minister agree with these figures, and if not, can he give the Government’s forecast? My personal solution for reform is generally not to make major change. I feel the current Chamber works very well. One small improvement would be to have ex officio the heads of commercial, industrial and service industry organisations in the House, so that in a non-partisan way their expertise could be made use of. The House is a little weak in these areas as a lot of business expertise was lost as a result of the House of Lords Act 1999. The other place has expressed its view. It believes that the reformed Chamber will be more democratic. This in itself is doubtful. As I said at the beginning, it has not thought through the consequences of what it has done and has failed to realise that it could weaken its own power. Is that what the other place wants, and is it right for Parliament? I know that our Back Benchers on this side of the House will for good constitutional reasons strongly oppose a Bill for an elected House, as will many from the Government Back Benches. I remember that the House of Lords Act 1999 only just got through, and my soundings on these and the Government Back Benches suggest that that was a piece of cake when compared with any Bill for 80 per cent or 100 per cent election. Let both Front Benches be advised of this.