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Occupational Pensions

I will give way in a minute; I will refer to the right hon. Gentleman’s contribution soon. We heard excellent speeches from my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dunbartonshire (John McFall) and my hon. Friends the Members for Coventry, North-West (Mr. Robinson), for Birmingham, Erdington (Mr. Simon), for Caerphilly (Mr. David), for Amber Valley (Judy Mallaber), for Stourbridge (Lynda Waltho), for Wirral, West (Stephen Hesford) and for Hartlepool (Mr. Wright). My right hon. Friend the Member for West Dunbartonshire referred to the hypocrisy and hullabaloo around the issue, and in particular to the way in which the shadow Chancellor presented his so-called argument. He made the important point that in the Chamber, personal abuse and personal attacks are not really a substitute for a sound argument. There was no substance whatever to the remarks that the hon. Member for Tatton (Mr. Osborne) made today; that is absolutely clear. My hon. Friends the Members for Birmingham, Erdington, for Caerphilly, for Amber Valley, for Stourbridge and for Wirral, West all argued in principle in favour of the changes that we made in the Budget of 1997. They did so with conviction, and their remarks were in contrast to those made by Opposition Members. My hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool made an excellent speech. I think that I am right in saying that he was the only accountant to speak today. [Interruption.] Well, there may have been other accountants, but my hon. Friend has my business any time that he wants to take it on. The hon. Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable), who spoke for the Liberal Democrats, suggested that the attacks made on the Chancellor by the Opposition were unfair, but said that he would vote with the Opposition anyway. That summarises in a nutshell the position that the Liberal Democrats usually end up taking. Of the speeches made by Conservative Members, I shall refer briefly to those made by the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke), who I see is in the Chamber; the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell), who served with the former Chancellor in the Treasury; and the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden, who also has an interesting track record on the matters that we are discussing. He served in the Treasury at the time of cuts—I am sorry, adjustments—to the dividend tax credits. In addition—and this is probably a unique achievement—he was a Minister during the pensions mis-selling crisis. Not only that, he was the author of the disastrous reforms that the Conservative Government proposed to make to the basic state pension, which, we should remember, would have abolished personal tax relief for pensions. He asked me earlier to give way, and I am happy to do so now.