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Pensions Bill

I am pleased to have a chance to speak briefly in this debate. I understand that the intention of this group of amendments is to probe, but it is important to get away from the loose discussion of means testing, because that could undermine the establishment of the new pensions regime and, more importantly, its role for many of my constituents for whom it will work very well indeed. It will be important in encouraging them to think about saving and making provision for themselves. I challenge the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Waterson) about the benefits he was including in the general category of means testing. We have all heard that term endlessly and we have all heard our constituents say that they do not particularly like means-tested benefits. When they say that, they mean particular aspects of the pension credit. By and large, the people who most dislike the means-testing of pension credit are those who are not entitled to receive it. I have never yet heard someone who is entitled to pension credit actually complain about the process for getting it. If we included all the other benefits to which old people might be entitled in the first place, we would strangle the personal accounts at birth, which would be a great shame. That would say to people that either they should rely on personal accounts and self-provision, or that they should be dependent on the state. The reality for many people is that it will be a combination of both. Many of my constituents will need both forms of provision, because many of them work part time. Others may work all the hours God sends, but they are not on very high wages. The personal accounts will work well for them, but in some instances they will need top-ups. Some of my constituents bought their council houses, and they will not need to worry about housing benefit, but those in rented accommodation will still need housing benefit. I think that they would regard that not as a means-tested benefit, but as part of the income package that they need to get by each month. The same applies to council tax credit and the various disability benefits and carer allowances that some people need to increase their income.