---

Counterterrorism

My Lords, I thank the Minister for reading out to your Lordships' House the Statement by the right honourable Home Secretary. The Opposition welcome this new approach tothe drafting of terrorist legislation. Hitherto, the Government have almost invariably reached their decisions without consultation and then proved quite immoveable in the face of compelling evidence to the contrary. The process that the Minister now outlines will, if fully implemented by the Government, allow not just your Lordships’ House and another place, but those who have an interest in these matters outside Parliament, to play a full part. I also hope that we will see during this process an end to some of the posturing that has been evident from certain members of the Government in relation to terrorism. There are some matters that have been announced by the Government today which have our wholehearted agreement. I am thinking in particular of, first, the introduction of a terrorist offender register. Secondly, we agree with the requirement that those committing offences who are at the same time involved in terrorism should see their sentences aggravated by the terrorism factor, although that should be handled carefully by the judiciary; it should exercise that new power proportionately. The third proposal is one that we have been pressing for the last two years—that there should be interviews after charge. Once again, the rules about how that should be introduced will have to be carefully thought through if the processes for fair trial in this country are to be properly protected. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, will underline that if he chooses to intervene. In reading the Statement, the noble Baroness placed great emphasis on two factors to which your Lordships have addressed your minds with particular intelligence and acuteness over the past two years. The first is intercept evidence, and the second control orders. I am, of course, not as great an expert on the subject as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, but it is clear to me that if we can find a way of allowing intercept evidence to be used in terrorist trials, that will substantially reduce the dependence we need to place on control orders. The questions of intercept evidence and control orders are intimately linked. I welcome the announcement today by the right honourable Home Secretary that he intends to establish a committee of privy counsellors to consider ways in which intercept evidence might be introduced in the trial process without in any way compromising either the sources of the methods used or the techniques. I ask the noble Baroness to pass on a suggestion that, if the decision of the committee is to be credible, it should be chaired by a privy counsellor who is quite independent of the Government, and that the committee should be representative of all parts of the political spectrum. About two and a quarter years ago, the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor gave an undertaking to your Lordships' House that we would be able to revisit the legislation that introduced control orders in full measure. That undertaking has not yet been met by the Government. I understand why the noble Baroness has announced this afternoon that the Government wish to wait until the Judicial Committee of your Lordships' House reaches a decision on some important issues that are in front of it in relation to control orders. However, if the consultation process on the matter unrolls in the way that the Government suggest, that decision will be comfortably behind us by the time that the legislation is in place. I therefore see no reason why we should not be able to review the control order system in its entirety in our debates on the new Bill when it comes before Parliament. I should be most grateful if the noble Baroness would confirm this afternoon that if the decision of the Judicial Committee has been made by the time that the Bill is introduced, the Government will meet in full measure their undertaking to your Lordships' House made in March 2005. Although I have said some critical things about the Government this afternoon, I underline that we welcome the Statement and the principles that lie behind it. Terrorism legislation is constitutional legislation. By that I mean that it affects the liberties of the individual citizen. If we fail to protect those liberties by ceding unnecessary ground in legislation to the powers of the state, we shall simply signal to terrorists that they are winning. So it is absolutely crucial that we ensure that we cede the minimum amount of liberty necessary to achieve the maximum protection for our citizens.