---

Armed Forces Personnel

I put it to the Chief of the Defence Staff in the Select Committee that as a ““back of a fag packet”” figure, if it were to meet the harmony guidelines set out in the strategic defence review and the requirements for tour intervals and so on, the Army would be about 130,000 to 135,000 strong. I am sufficiently realistic to recognise that that will not be the case. However, I suggest to the Minister of State that where there is a will, there is a way. If there were resources, it could be done. Like every other branch of military activity, there is probably not enough money in recruitment. I know that strenuous efforts have been made. I have had meetings in the past with the director of Army recruitment, who has taken me to task about how difficult it is to attract and recruit people in today’s labour market. Where unit-led recruitment is properly incentivised, and where a commanding officer of a battalion makes it his job to ensure that his battalion is fully recruited, it can be done. There is not the will to recruit those numbers, because if they were recruited, the money would have to be found from other budget headings, and that would be a painful process. I was speaking about tour intervals. It is surprising—[Interruption.] I hear the Minister of State muttering in frustration at my comments. We have incredibly talented and able people, who could run the fire service and who sorted out the foot and mouth crisis. They are extremely capable. Is the right hon. Gentleman seriously asking the House to believe that it is beyond the wit of any general in the British Army to work out how we could recruit to strength, if the money were available? I am sorry—I do not believe it.