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Carter Review (Legal Aid)

It is a pleasure to attend the debate as the new Minister with responsibility in the House of Commons for legal aid. So that Members are aware, however, I ought to make the point that Lord Hunt of Kings Heath takes the policy lead in the Department. It is not quite accurate to say that I have my hands fully on policy making in this respect, although everybody in the ministerial team has an interest in the issue. I thank Members, and in particular the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith), whose Committee report we are debating today, for their excellent work. I thank him also for the way in which he introduced the debate. There are a few lawyers in the Public Gallery today, and some are even sitting in the Chamber. I am one of them, although I do not practise. I have not practised in the 10 years since I became a Member of Parliament. However, as a solicitor, I have experience in the areas under discussion. I therefore do have an understanding of these matters, although it is more out of date perhaps than that of some people who will be interested to read the Hansard report of today’s debate. I recognise the great concern and the passion with which points have been made during the debate. In the short time that I have been in my post, I have had the opportunity to read about the gestation of some of the issues and to read previous debates. I have read the early-day motions. I have read about a lot of what has been going on, so I understand the issue and I recognise the concerns that have been expressed. I am pleased to answer the debate, although time is short. In the time that remains, it is inevitable that I shall not have a chance to deal with every point that has been raised. However, as some Members have asked specific questions about their constituencies, I undertake to contact them by letter, because I shall inevitably run out of time before I have dealt with all the points. I have listened to what they have said, and I understand both the concerns that have been expressed, and that many present do not agree with much of what the Government are doing. However, it seems that there is some agreement and common ground between the Government and those people who disagree with aspects of the reform programme. Everybody wants a system that allows us to help more people. We all want a system that allows proper value for money, that is joined up with the rest of our justice system and that contributes to and benefits from the work going on to improve the entire criminal justice system and to make it more efficient. Legal aid provides a vital service; everybody has made that absolutely clear. It has never enjoyed the same profile as other elements of the welfare state—a number of Members have made this point—but it is an important plank of it. I do not accept that legal aid has been starved of funds. Nobody said that specifically, although the hon. Member for Cambridge (David Howarth) came precious close. Spending has increased in the past 10 years from about £1.5 billion in 1997 to more than £2 billion. A lot of money is going into the system. My hon. Friend the Member for City of York (Hugh Bayley) might have felt like Daniel in the lions’ den for making similar points—he ought to consider how I feel at the moment—but he was correct that this country spends far more on legal aid than any other European country. The Committee made the same point in its report. The taxpayer has a right to expect good value for money. Payment by the hour is rather old-fashioned. Any member of the legal profession would accept that—there are not many other professions these days in which one gets paid by the hour. It is old-fashioned, it does not work and it has its own perverse incentives. Part of our debate has concerned the perverse incentives that might arise from some of the reform proposals, but we should not forget that the current system has perverse incentives that have existed for many years.