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National Security

My Lords, I, too, welcome the Statement made by the Leader of the House. We learn that the Government intend to consult widely and to seek all-party consensus. That is key, and must of course be welcomed. However, consensus does not mean, ““Everyone else, adopt our policy””; it means listening and sometimes changing policy, and we will judge this policy of consensus according to that criterion. I also hope that the Government will accept that this House in particular has special experience and a special role to play in examining these matters. I start almost at the end of the Statement by welcoming the various initiatives to go into communities. A couple of weeks ago, I received as part of an educational programme a Muslim lady who was a social worker. After I had shown her and a number of others around, we talked generally and she told me that she had an 18 year-old son who was very keen to join the police. She then paused and said, ““But of course he would not dare say that down at the mosque””. For me, that sent a chill that must be addressed. Young Muslims should be able to think of joining the police, our Army and other parts of our national life without fear of mentioning it down at the mosque. We also have a special job to do in universities where some very dangerous extremism is given root. There is a need for an educational role there. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, caught part of the mood of this. We understand the statistics on the number of plots and terrorist gains; our scepticism arises when the Government have to rush to make new and fresh legislation every time a plot is discovered. Surely the point of the previous legislation was to deal with those very points. Legislation on this must not become a ratchet or an ever-incoming tide. We must look very carefully at each case. We of course welcome the publication of the national security strategy and the review of counterterrorism measures, but I hope that once the noble Lord, Lord West, with all his experience, has looked at how ID cards and their costs are unfolding and has reached the conclusion that resources might be diverted more effectively to other parts of counterterrorism, the Government will have the courage to accept such advice. They have heard our advice and are going down that road but, as the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, indicated, there have been some spectacular and costly failures in the use of new technologies, and it would be a pity if the more mundane parts of the service, such as Special Branch, were starved of resources simply because the Government did not have the courage to admit that they had got into a costly cul-de-sac. Again, we welcome the review of intercept evidence. I shall not tick off all the ideas that we or the Conservatives had first because, if we are working towards consensus, we should all take the credit. I notice that the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, is given special mention; he is almost heading for sainthood so far as the Government are concerned. However, there are other experienced views on the 28-day rule on these Benches, not least those of my noble friend Lord Dholakia, who pointed out only yesterday—at col. 758 of the Official Report—that we have moved very quickly from 14 days to 28 days, and that 56 days are now proposed. The voice of the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, carries at least as much weight as that of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. Yesterday, in the same column of Hansard, he pointed out that we already have the longest holding period without trial of any liberal democracy. I therefore hope the Government realise that we on these Benches will test very carefully the arguments on 28 days and that we will look for the evidence that an extension is needed. I suppose, however, that it ultimately comes back to the theme in the Prime Minister’s intentions, and certainly to the spirit which the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, mentioned. Around both Houses and across the country there is a real pride in the term ““liberal democracy””, in the broader sense, and what it means for our freedoms. There is a real determination which goes beyond any political party to defend and not to lose the things that make a liberal democracy worth defending. It will be a very difficult balance. I echo the last point made by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde—by their fruits will we know them. Leaflets suggesting that the Liberals are soft on terrorism and press briefings suggesting that only the Government have national security at heart are what will destroy the consensus. We will listen, we will watch, we will participate—but by your fruits we will know you.