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Pensions Bill

The trouble is that whenever we try to engage in a constructive discussion of what we might do, a Labour Member pulls the debate back to a simplistic option. None of us has any desire to reduce the amount that our pensioners, and particularly our poorest pensioners, receive. I happen to think that the Government have introduced a means-testing system that is much too complex, but I have no desire to remove money from the pockets of the poorest pensioners; they struggle enough as it is. Nevertheless, it is important to get this matter right. The hon. Gentleman should understand that; he should have a private chat with his colleague the right hon. Member for Birkenhead, who understands these issues far better than any other Labour Member. There are many other aspects of the Bill that need to be properly debated, but this is one that they must get right.