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Debate on bill on Monday, 7 January 2008, in the House of Commons, led by Lord Hain. The answering member was Lord Grayling.

Pensions Bill

Pensions Bill. Second reading debate. Agreed to on question. Programme motion on proceedings in Committee, on Report, Third Reading and any other proceedings agreed to on question. Money Resolution agreed to on question. Ways and Means Resolution agreed to on question.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
470 c54-127 
Session
2007-08
Department
Department for Work and Pensions
Legislative stage
Second reading
Procedure
Programme motions
Money resolutions
Ways and means resolutions
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Pensions Bill. (Explanatory notes Bill 25-EN published).
Wednesday, 5 December 2007
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
John Greenway | 470 c58-9 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State is reassuring on the levelling down of contribution amounts. However, for man...
Lord Hain | 470 c58 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure about the hon. Gentleman's 14 per cent. figure, but I will certainly have a look at th...
Show all contributions (159)
Julie Kirkbride | 470 c60 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State knows that many of us were disappointed that there was no statement on the ne...
Graham Stuart | 470 c60 (Link to this contribution) Does the Secretary of State agree that over time the salary levels of employees will be adjusted to ...
Lord Hain | 470 c60 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a fair point. That is why the scheme is designed to reduce the administrative c...
Adrian Bailey | 470 c59 (Link to this contribution) Does the Secretary of State agree that one of the best ways to ensure the maximum pension entitlemen...
Lord Hain | 470 c59 (Link to this contribution) I understand my hon. Friend's point, which he made in an appropriately vigorous manner. He has been ...
Harry Cohen | 470 c59 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State has acknowledged that he does not know what the outcome rate will be—that is,...
Lord Hain | 470 c59 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the slippage—it seemed at one point that it might be a haemorrh...
Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston | 470 c55 (Link to this contribution) The Labour Government can be proud of what they have done for women, but the group of 30,000 to 40,0...
Lord Hain | 470 c55 (Link to this contribution) We have only done that in limited cases, but we are looking at it all the time. If we could find a w...
Lord Hain | 470 c55 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for my hon. Friend's question. As I indicated, we will move towards the 90 per cent. f...
Steve Webb | 470 c55 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State made the valid point that expecting women to find thousands of pounds up fron...
Lord Hain | 470 c54 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. It is the duty of every Government to keep ...
Chris Mullin | 470 c55 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend have any plans to address the difficulty faced by the other 25 per cent., ...
Oliver Heald | 470 c58 (Link to this contribution) Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that the average payment that employers make into final salary ...
Kelvin Hopkins | 470 c56 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend touched on the problem, as he put it, of affordability, but in a rich society I...
Kali Mountford | 470 c56 (Link to this contribution) Before my right hon. Friend moves on from the subject of women in low-paid work or without work at a...
Lord Hain | 470 c56-7 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend and I are aware of my hon. Friend's point; I know that she has championed...
Joan Humble | 470 c57 (Link to this contribution) Although the legislation proposed today will enormously benefit the millions of workers who do not c...
Lord Hain | 470 c57 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that my hon. Friend has raised that matter because it allows me to put on the record reass...
Hugh Bayley | 470 c57-8 (Link to this contribution) As a former social security Minister, I am extremely pleased that the Government are moving towards ...
Lord Hain | 470 c58 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for my hon. Friend's general support. This is a defined-contribution scheme, not a def...
Lord Hain | 470 c55 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend the Minister for Pensions Reform will continue to look at it. There are c...
Lord Hain | 470 c69 (Link to this contribution) Is it possible for anybody to save for their retirement through a pension scheme of one kind or anot...
Lord Grayling | 470 c69 (Link to this contribution) This issue can be best distilled in one simple question: will it be possible for an individual on lo...
Lord Hain | 470 c68-9 (Link to this contribution) As my hon. Friend knows, there is already a £6,000 disregard to help in that respect. Clearly there ...
Harry Cohen | 470 c68 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State made an interesting point about trivial commutation, whereby people could col...
Lord Hain | 470 c68 (Link to this contribution) It is because people who contribute to the personal accounts will be better off. The position that t...
Julie Kirkbride | 470 c68 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way again. We on the Conservative Benches take th...
John Penrose | 470 c67-8 (Link to this contribution) I should like to press the Secretary of State on the point about generic financial advice. The Gover...
Lord Hain | 470 c68 (Link to this contribution) It is not a question of ignoring the issue. The hon. Gentleman makes some fair points about financia...
Lord Hain | 470 c67 (Link to this contribution) Obviously if an individual was in a position where pension credit would be forthcoming a short time ...
Lord Grayling | 470 c71 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman proud of the fact that the Government's most recent figures show that the poor...
Hugh Bayley | 470 c71 (Link to this contribution) If the 1997 pension scheme was so good, why were millions of pensioners in poverty, and why are fewe...
Lord Hain | 470 c69-70 (Link to this contribution) That is an attractive proposition and I will consider it, although I am not sure what the pension pr...
Lord Grayling | 470 c70-1 (Link to this contribution) It was disappointing to hear the Secretary of State demonstrate so little understanding of what are ...
Lord Hain | 470 c70 (Link to this contribution) Very few did. This Bill, alongside its predecessor, will be considered equally historic. It is a bl...
Joan Humble | 470 c69 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Lord Hain | 470 c69 (Link to this contribution) I think that this had better be the last occasion on which I do so, because I have taken up a great ...
Joan Humble | 470 c69 (Link to this contribution) I thank my right hon. Friend. I speak as one who fully supports the legislation. My right hon. Frie...
Nick Palmer | 470 c73 (Link to this contribution) Is not the hon. Gentleman using the Government's progressive introduction of help for low-paid peopl...
Lord Grayling | 470 c72-3 (Link to this contribution) We have not yet seen any of the details of the proposals, but we want to support the Bill, and we wa...
Lord Hain | 470 c72 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his offer of support on this issue, at least. We will clearl...
Lord Grayling | 470 c71-2 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that the hon. Lady clearly does not understand the pensions system. Issues involving def...
Lord Grayling | 470 c73 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that many Labour Members understand the issue. Let us consider two people in identica...
Lord Grayling | 470 c71 (Link to this contribution) I want to praise the Secretary of State. I want to echo the words of the right hon. Member for Birke...
Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston | 470 c71 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for finally seeing the light and congratulating the Government o...
Lord Grayling | 470 c75 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Interestingly, my next remark was to be precisely what the Minis...
Oliver Heald | 470 c75 (Link to this contribution) Is it not also right to reflect on who these people are? They are people who, at the moment, do not ...
Lord Grayling | 470 c75 (Link to this contribution) I fear that the Minister still does not understand the issue. Parliament is legislating to auto-enro...
Mike O'Brien | 470 c75 (Link to this contribution) Let me just repeat for the hon. Gentleman's benefit that, today, one in six pensioners are automatic...
Lord Grayling | 470 c74 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman will bear with me for a few minutes, I will address that issue. My concern is...
Lord Grayling | 470 c74 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has to remember that he is auto-enrolling people on low incomes on to pension schemes. ...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 470 c74 (Link to this contribution) It is really important for Labour Members to understand the point. There are difficulties now and my...
Lord Grayling | 470 c74 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, who speaks on these matters with great authority. I hope ...
Lord Hain | 470 c61 (Link to this contribution) Automatic enrolment is the radical change that we are introducing. We do not need to be patted on th...
Julie Morgan | 470 c61 (Link to this contribution) I want to take this opportunity to congratulate my right hon. Friend on the written statement before...
Lord Hain | 470 c61 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has been a ferocious champion on behalf of the Cardiff ASW workers, as have many of m...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 470 c62 (Link to this contribution) Earlier, it sounded as though hon. Members were going to be slightly crabby about the success that t...
Lord Hain | 470 c60-1 (Link to this contribution) I shall happily remind the hon. Lady of the key points. A written ministerial statement was made to ...
David Drew | 470 c61 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend the Minister for Pensions Reform, who is sitting next to my right hon. Fr...
Lord Hain | 470 c61 (Link to this contribution) Obviously, we are still considering the matter. I know that the points have been made to my hon. and...
Kelvin Hopkins | 470 c61 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend mentioned the millions who are not saving for their retirement. He made a publi...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 470 c62 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State consider ways to remove the disincentives on personal responsibility? Pe...
Lord Hain | 470 c62-3 (Link to this contribution) That proposal is being kept under discussion with Help the Aged, which, as the hon. Gentleman knows,...
Madeleine Moon | 470 c62 (Link to this contribution) In my constituency, 4,000 people receive pension credit, which affects more than 5,000 families. How...
Lord Hain | 470 c62 (Link to this contribution) That is the fundamental objective of the Bill and of the policy that will be delivered around it. My...
Sally Keeble | 470 c63 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend explain what will happen on empty hours contracts and on employers who del...
Lord Hain | 470 c63 (Link to this contribution) The Bill includes various restrictions on contracts. Zero hours contracts, especially as they apply ...
Nick Palmer | 470 c63 (Link to this contribution) We are all concerned that employers in marginal industries do not pressurise their staff to opt out....
John Penrose | 470 c63-4 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State has discussed what he hopes will be the effectiveness of automatic enrolment ...
Lord Hain | 470 c62 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that comment, because he is not prone universally to congr...
Lord Hain | 470 c65 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman saying that because of an argument over what has been described by the CBI as ...
Lord Grayling | 470 c65 (Link to this contribution) Does the Secretary of State believe that it is important, as the House debates this measure, that it...
Lord Hain | 470 c65-6 (Link to this contribution) Of course it is important that we get it right, but I want to know whether or not the hon. Gentleman...
Graham Stuart | 470 c66 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Lord Hain | 470 c66 (Link to this contribution) I would like to make some progress, and if necessary, I shall give way if the hon. Gentleman feels t...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 470 c66 (Link to this contribution) What we have just heard from the Opposition is really quite extraordinary. Has it not been the clear...
Lord Hain | 470 c66-7 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether the Opposition are going to vote against Second Reading. I am grateful to my h...
Graham Stuart | 470 c67 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way. A lot of the misgivings that hon. Members th...
Lord Grayling | 470 c65 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State just quoted the National Association of Pension Funds at my party. Let me quo...
Lord Hain | 470 c64-5 (Link to this contribution) I am going to deal with that problem in a few minutes, and the hon. Gentleman can come back to me at...
Danny Alexander | 470 c83-4 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State is of course right to point out the history of the debate, which goes back—as...
Lord Hain | 470 c83 (Link to this contribution) I cannot disagree with what the hon. Gentleman is saying, but I remind him that the Government have ...
Danny Alexander | 470 c82-3 (Link to this contribution) As often happens on these occasions, I have the pleasure of following the right hon. Member for Birk...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 470 c80-2 (Link to this contribution) I want to make just two points, and in doing so to come back to the praise that has rightly been giv...
Danny Alexander | 470 c85-6 (Link to this contribution) That is an important point which we would all be more able to understand if we were given access to ...
Nigel Waterson | 470 c85 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman aware that one of the difficulties is that the Department's model does not tak...
Danny Alexander | 470 c84-5 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that that is an argument in favour of the scheme. Presumably all Members would want pe...
Nick Palmer | 470 c84 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that is an argument in favour of the scheme? Although there are p...
Sally Keeble | 470 c86 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the point about the citizen's pension is not how much it is but ...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 470 c75 (Link to this contribution) As people are saving for tomorrow, they will presumably have less money in the present. Does the hon...
Hugh Bayley | 470 c77 (Link to this contribution) I have a point to raise before the hon. Gentleman leaves the subject of means-testing. One way to ge...
Lord Grayling | 470 c75-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will have to ask the Secretary of State that question, or the Minister who will w...
Graham Stuart | 470 c77 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend share my dismay at the approach of Ministers—and, indeed, of many other Labour M...
Lord Grayling | 470 c77 (Link to this contribution) The trouble is that whenever we try to engage in a constructive discussion of what we might do, a La...
Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston | 470 c77-8 (Link to this contribution) I am genuinely puzzled. The hon. Gentleman does not make a sufficiently clear distinction between st...
Lord Grayling | 470 c77 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. I hope that a Minister will, either now or in the closing remarks, say, ““Y...
Lord Grayling | 470 c78 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Lady really had taken an active interest in pensions for all those years she would under...
Kelvin Hopkins | 470 c78 (Link to this contribution) Would the hon. Gentleman be prepared to accept the high level of contributions to social provision t...
Lord Grayling | 470 c79-80 (Link to this contribution) It is disappointing again to hear a Labour Member trying to divert attention from what are, as the S...
Danny Alexander | 470 c86 (Link to this contribution) Given the fact that over recent years Governments have dramatically eroded the contributory principl...
Danny Alexander | 470 c87-9 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is right about the figures, although to be fair to the Government, if we ar...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 470 c87 (Link to this contribution) The Government's new estimate of the number of people who will be on means-tests after the reforms i...
Alan Simpson | 470 c89-92 (Link to this contribution) I hope that it does not damage the standing or career of the Secretary of State or the Minister for ...
Speaker | 470 c89 (Link to this contribution) Order. A number of right hon. and hon. Members are hoping to contribute. The time left for Back-Benc...
Danny Alexander | 470 c86 (Link to this contribution) I agree wholeheartedly. There is lasting consensus between my hon. Friend and me. He makes a serious...
Steve Webb | 470 c86 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for interrupting my hon. Friend, but the difference between him and the hon. Member for ...
Danny Alexander | 470 c87 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his interest, but we need to aim for what is defined as the ...
Kelvin Hopkins | 470 c86 (Link to this contribution) I am interested in the hon. Gentleman's citizen's pension idea. Does he think that a reasonable targ...
John Greenway | 470 c92-5 (Link to this contribution) It is a great pleasure to be able to speak in the House at all. In recent months, I have spent so mu...
Anne Begg | 470 c97-8 (Link to this contribution) Obviously the hon. Gentleman can see into the future far better than I can. We do not know what kind...
Graham Stuart | 470 c96-7 (Link to this contribution) The real failure of the system would not be the scenario that the hon. Lady paints, but one where ma...
Anne Begg | 470 c95-6 (Link to this contribution) I, too, am an optimist and a glass-half-full person; that is why I welcome the Bill. Some of the ton...
Graham Stuart | 470 c102-3 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to take part in the debate and to follow the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield...
Richard Burden | 470 c100-2 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink). I had some difficulty in re...
Gregory Campbell | 470 c106 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman talks about the safety net and I take his point on board. He refers to our tellin...
Nick Palmer | 470 c106 (Link to this contribution) If the previous two contributions from the Conservative Benches reflect a wish to take politics out ...
Graham Stuart | 470 c103-5 (Link to this contribution) I will press on, because I want Ministers to tackle the substance of the issues. When the Minister ...
Mike O'Brien | 470 c125 (Link to this contribution) Let me just finish dealing with the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell; I may then deal with the hon. G...
Nigel Waterson | 470 c125 (Link to this contribution) I happened to be involved in those discussions, although, in fairness, the hon. and learned Gentlema...
Mike O'Brien | 470 c124-5 (Link to this contribution) I have set out the various problems arising from the various proposals in a number of speeches. It h...
Mike O'Brien | 470 c125-6 (Link to this contribution) I make the offer, and the Opposition will not accept it. They always come up with excuses. We have s...
Lord Grayling | 470 c124 (Link to this contribution) I simply ask the Minister what he is going to do.
Mike O'Brien | 470 c123-4 (Link to this contribution) Of course, there will be a debate in Committee and I am sure that we will have a substantial opportu...
Harry Cohen | 470 c117-8 (Link to this contribution) This is a genuine attempt by the Government to tackle the serious problem of under-saving, too few c...
Nigel Waterson | 470 c118-20 (Link to this contribution) It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead (Harry Cohen), who always ...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 470 c113-5 (Link to this contribution) I shall start with the Opposition, because we had a truly characteristic and classic performance fro...
Hywel Williams | 470 c115-7 (Link to this contribution) We welcome the Bill, albeit with some reservations. Many of us have long awaited consensus on pensio...
Sally Keeble | 470 c110-2 (Link to this contribution) I also want to pay tribute to Front-Bench Members for their outstanding work in tackling pensioner p...
Gregory Campbell | 470 c112-3 (Link to this contribution) I join other hon. Members in commending the Ministers and officials responsible on the successful ou...
Nick Palmer | 470 c106-8 (Link to this contribution) That is right, which is one of the arguments for the opt-in. We believe that there is a logical and ...
Steve Webb | 470 c108-10 (Link to this contribution) I shall focus on just one issue in my brief speech. I shall return to where the Secretary of State b...
Lord Grayling | 470 c123 (Link to this contribution) The Minister obviously did not hear me correctly because I referred to the delivery authority and it...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 470 c123 (Link to this contribution) Are not we in danger of setting up a monopoly with the Personal Accounts Delivery Authority? If cont...
Mike O'Brien | 470 c123 (Link to this contribution) The Personal Accounts Delivery Authority is there for development. The hon. Member for Epsom and Ewe...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 470 c123 (Link to this contribution) Regardless of whether there is to be yet another body, which could be a monopoly behind a monopoly b...
Mike O'Brien | 470 c123 (Link to this contribution) There will be widespread competition with the private sector—those who currently provide various sch...
Nigel Waterson | 470 c120-1 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to accept that form of words, because it summarises what I have been trying to say and wh...
Nigel Waterson | 470 c121-2 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but I do not have time. I can tell the Minister that my colleagues and I are already wo...
Mike O'Brien | 470 c122-3 (Link to this contribution) Let me begin by saying that I will take no lessons from the party that introduced pensions holidays ...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 470 c120 (Link to this contribution) Is not there an important distinction to make in charging the Government with failure to act sooner ...
Lord Hain | 470 c60 (Link to this contribution) Obviously—in the sense that any enterprise's bottom line includes all the costs, such as employer co...
Lord Hain | 470 c56 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend ought to address taxation matters to the Chancellor. However, if the question was as ...
Richard Burden | 470 c73-4 (Link to this contribution) I think that most Labour Members do understand the relationship between the two issues. My right hon...
Lord Hain | 470 c69 (Link to this contribution) The serious issue is the one to be explored in detail in Committee. The serious issue is not to crea...
Mike O'Brien | 470 c74 (Link to this contribution) I am listening in bewilderment. Today, one in six people are automatically enrolled into their pensi...
Lord Hain | 470 c63 (Link to this contribution) Despite the best intentions of legislation, it is sometimes difficult universally to enforce rights ...
Bob Spink | 470 c98-100 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Aberdeen, South (Miss Begg). She is right to mention ...
Steve Webb | 470 c110 (Link to this contribution) I had better not, as I am pressed for time. The critical point is that the Government know who those...
Subjects
Costs Advisory services Women Pension credit Personal income Workplace pensions Poverty Pensions Personal pensions Means-tested benefits Pension funds State retirement pensions Small businesses Reform National employment savings trust scheme
Legislation
Pensions Bill 2007-08
Link
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