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Pensions Bill

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his interest, but we need to aim for what is defined as the poverty line—the minimum income guarantee in the current pension credit. My maths is not quick enough to work out whether that would be 25 per cent. but it probably does not quite reach that amount. The hon. Gentleman's proposal is a further degree of ambition, from a policy and financial point of view, to which I cannot agree at this stage. However, the citizen's pension would certainly be one way of providing a firm foundation whereby anyone saving in a personal account would know that they would receive full value and full return on their savings. The most frustrating thing about the Government's attitude to means-testing is that, in effect, they throw up their hands in horror saying, ““It's someone else's problem—think of an answer””. If both sides of the House accept that there is a problem and that it will not be worthwhile for some of the people—probably hundreds of thousands—who will be encouraged to save in a personal account to do so—[Interruption.] The number may be higher; it may be millions, as the right hon. Member for Birkenhead suggests. I am not sure whether that is right, but in the absence of the proper research and information that the Government could provide, it is hard to know. Even if the number is only hundreds of thousands—