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Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill [HL]

My Lords, it would take courage for a non-scientist to intervene in this debate. I admit that I am truly confused, and I would be very grateful if the debate would turn itself a little to what appear to be the established facts of the situation. During the debate in 2001 on the regulations for the HFEA, a number of claims were set out for embryonic stem cells. Those claims unquestionably referred to such degenerative diseases as Alzheimer’s, multiple sclerosis and others. If you look back at that debate, you will see evidence of highly promising results in a relatively short period as a result of the use of embryonic stem cells. In the discussion that we have just had, the noble Lords, Lord Patel and Lord Winston, have both said in very strong terms that the great majority of the biotechnological community are strongly of the view that embryonic stem cell research is still absolutely essential. I admit that I was a bit thrown, having done a good deal of research as a lay person in this subject, to find strongly stated opinions that appear to be rather different. With the leave of the House, I will refer to some of those, but I will not take long. Let me mention a few. The House will be familiar with the fact that Professor Wilmut, the designer and producer of Dolly the sheep, the first cloned mammal in this country, has already said that he will not pursue cloning and will now turn over to largely adult stem cell research as the basis for his research and investigations. Let me quote a few more. Dr Lanza, chief scientific officer for Advanced Cell Technology in Massachusetts, said: "““It’s a bit like learning how to turn lead into gold””." He was referring to adult stem cell research. Perhaps more to the point, in my own university of Harvard, a huge amount of investment has been made into the discussion of embryonic stem cells. Professor Douglas Melton, the head of that project, said: "““There was a prejudice, now shown to be wrong, against the very idea that you could take an adult cell and reprogram it back into an embryonic-like state””." It is very difficult, if you read back to the discussions of that earlier period, not to deny that there was such a fundamental prejudice against the idea that adult stem cells could have the results that they have now been shown to have. James Thomson, head of a Wisconsin-Madison research unit which has done a great deal of interesting work in the field on stem cells, says, ““The world has changed.”” Our own Nobel prize-winning professor, Martin Evans of Cardiff University, says: "““The writing is on the wall for destructive embryonic research””." It is quite difficult to put those quotations from recognised scientists—in one or two cases, very senior scientists—alongside what has been said earlier in this debate. As it is vital to try to get to the heart of the matter, perhaps I may ask a few questions as a lay person—I repeat, layperson—who shares the strong desire that we should address degenerative diseases and find ways of healing them, but who also believes that we should not do so by giving or raising false hopes of the kind that are extremely disappointing and discouraging. I understand that the shortage of eggs—mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Winston, for whom I have the greatest respect—is one difficulty in dealing with this field of research. Responsibility therefore surely falls on us to try to reduce the need for such human eggs as far as possible; in other words, to ensure as far as possible that the research we follow is not dependent on embryonic stem cell research unless it is unavoidable. I still want to hear about the extent to which it is unavoidable. The second argument for adult stem cell research is that it does not raise the issue of immune reaction because the stem cells come from the same host as the one in whom they are intended to work in a curative capacity. Therefore, the second question I need to ask, and it would be very helpful to have a direct reply to it, is how far the immune reaction can be excluded on the basis of cells that are themselves based on embryonic cell research, and how far that continues to be a problem. The third issue—it is not one that I fully understand although I listened closely to the noble Lords, Lord Patel and Lord Winston—is how far adult stem cells are replicable for embryo stem cells. The argument that the noble Lord, Lord Winston, put forward, if one hears and considers it carefully, was based much more on expectations and hopes of what might come from embryonic stem cell research than on actual evidence of clear therapies that have emerged, the most recent example of which is sickle cell anaemia and adult stem cell research. The noble Lord, Lord Winston, like another noble Lord at an earlier stage, referred to the possibility of cancer-carrying genes when he indicated certain dangers with adult stem cell research. Again, it is hard for a layman to make a judgment. Professor Yamanaka told us a few weeks ago that he had managed to exclude genes carrying the possibility of cancerous developments from his own attempts to reprogram adult stem cells. He announced the results of that experiment a few weeks ago. However, I rather got the impression that the noble Lord, Lord Patel, nevertheless felt that still to be a real and serious factor. Does that mean that we have not yet had enough experiments to make it clear that the danger of cancer-carrying reprogrammed cells can be excluded, or does it mean that the noble Lord does not particularly believe that the experiment was valid and justified? My final point is very important. In a situation where adult stem cells are largely though not totally replicable for embryonic stem cells—the noble Lord, Lord Winston, referred to embryonic stem cell research as a form of reference or a golden standard—should we take the view that if, as has happened in the past few months, more research in the field more frequently indicates that adult stem cell research is a fully adequate and non-dangerous alternative to embryonic stem cell research, then the Government should honour their own commitment? That commitment was made both in another place and in this place by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for whom we all have great respect. In the Official Report for 22 January he said: "““the 1990 Act already provides the answer to the question of what happens if and when research into adult cells overtakes research using embryos””." I had raised the question of whether the point we seemed to have reached was clear, and the noble Lord went on to say that, in that case, "““embryonic research would have to stop because the use of embryos would no longer be necessary for that research””.—[Official Report, 22/1/01; col. 120.]" The Minister in another place went even further, saying that the HFEA, "““must satisfy itself that there is no other way of doing the research, avoiding embryo use””.—[Official Report, Commons, 19/12/00; col. 214.]" Adult stem cell research has undoubtedly progressed in leaps and bounds since then, so I would like to ask the noble and scientific Lords, as we now know them, what is their own assessment of the advances made by adult stem cell research in very recent years? Do they believe that the argument about genes carrying possibly cancerous materials still holds up in the light of Dr Yamanaka’s most recent research, or are they waiting for more such experiments? Finally, if embryonic stem cell research proves to have been overtaken in the next 10 years by the results and therapies from adult stem cell research, will the Government ensure that they take steps to bring the matter before the House again so that we can move from one to the other at the earliest possible scientifically acceptable point? I have a very strong sense that, as my Harvard colleague indicated, there is a prejudice in favour of embryonic stem cell research and that that prejudice must be questioned. I am sure that none of us has a desire to continue using embryos if it can possibly be avoided.