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Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill [HL]

moved Amendment No. 17: 17: Clause 4, page 4, line 35, leave out paragraph (e) and insert— ““(e) such other embryo, not falling within subsections (a) to (d), which contains the DNA of a human and the DNA of an animal, in which the DNA of an animal does not predominate throughout the period of its keeping or use.”” The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, Amendments Nos. 17 and 18 are intended to complete the definition of ““admixed human embryo””. In new Section 4A(5) of the Bill, paragraph (e) refers to, "““such other thing as may be specified in regulations””." Most of us would agree that this is a not particularly felicitous way of looking forward to some scientific development yet to occur which might show some other way of producing an admixed human embryo. The other point is that it is not at all clear in summarising the character of paragraphs (a) to (d). ““Such other thing”” is really not a particularly good gathering up of what went before. When this Bill was originally presented in draft to the Joint Committee, the Government had a paragraph that was intended to be a catch-all provision. It specified the proportion of animal and human material that would be required to constitute what was then described as an ““interspecies embryo”” and is now more accurately described as an ““admixed human embryo””. That paragraph did not have any percentage at all to start with. The percentage was added in ink, which suggested it was a slight afterthought, and the scientists who gave evidence found it impossible to understand, because the percentage depends on what you are measuring and the effect depends on more than mere proportion. The Joint Committee was anxious to produce a definition that would clarify the issue and also tie the whole paragraph together. We made a suggestion in the report that was taken up by the Government but apparently they failed to produce any improvement, and it was ultimately given up in favour of ““such other thing””. Following the Committee stage, the noble Lord, Lord Patel, kindly arranged for us to meet some of the leaders of the scientific community to see whether we could produce an effective definition that would ““catch all”” and that would also be illustrative of the point that we are not regulating all interspecies embryos, but only some interspecies embryos. After discussion, we came up with the view that this could be clarified by an amendment along the lines of Amendment No. 17, which the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and I have tabled, with the help of those scientists. It uses as the fundamental measuring word the word ““predominate””, which enables a judgment to be made on the various factors that could be used to estimate the degree to which animal material and human material were present in the embryo. When the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, was opening the debate on Amendment No. 1, he used that word, which suggested to me that so far no one has thought of a better word. Therefore, this is a much more illuminating provision for proposed new Section 4A than ““such other thing””, to which I have a certain degree of animosity. The amendment would be an immediate answer to the question asked by my noble friend Lord Tebbit on Amendment No. 1. We say in the amendment that the human end of the spectrum of interspecies embryos ends where the amount of animal material predominates in the embryo. That means that roughly the 50 per cent or equal category would be caught as a human embryo and would have the regulation and protection of the human embryo, leaving the embryos in which animal material predominates to be regulated, if at all, by the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act. As I said earlier, it is not absolutely clear that it regulates embryos, but it regulates what you can do with animal embryos after six months, and it regulates putting into animals materials of any kind that might cause them harm or pain. There is an element of regulation there, but there is no actual regulation of a non-animal embryo in the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act, so far as I can see in my study of it. That is not an essential point. The essential point about the amendment is that it clarifies what we mean and what the Government mean by ““human admixed embryo””. It is therefore an element in clarification of the scope of the Bill as a whole and replaces the inaccurate description that was in the Bill originally and which has now been replaced by the Government in this House. I beg to move.