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Welsh Affairs

Well, I certainly would not increase them; that is a straight answer. There has recently been much discussion of policing in this Chamber. The Flanagan report, which I hope will be implemented, has made many useful and worthwhile proposals that will get rid of some of the paperwork that police officers currently face. We do not have the same problems in Wales as inner-city London has, but we nevertheless have significant problems of disorder and antisocial behaviour, even in some of the market towns. One such town is Abergavenny, which is not the sort of place one would expect large-scale disorder. Yet young people have come to me and said that other young people are making it impossible for them to walk the streets of Abergavenny in the evenings, and particularly at weekends. If the Secretary of State is ever passing through, I will be happy to show him the problems there. When I went out with the police in Abergavenny, I saw groups of 50 to 100 youngsters gathering on Cross street, with which I think the Secretary of State will be familiar, and intimidating passers-by, drinking cans of lager—even though most of them were under age—smoking and swearing. It was intimidating for elderly passers-by who wanted to enjoy a night out in Abergavenny and perhaps go to the local theatre. Under current legislation, it is difficult for the police to deal with such behaviour. Even when people are breaking the law, the police are not necessarily able to arrest, stop and search or even process them. Often, all they can do is ask them to move on—if the right local authority orders are in place—or confiscate alcohol, or take people home if they are clearly inebriated. That needs to change. Some of the Flanagan report proposals will help the police. Certainly where they have grounds for stopping and searching, instead of having to fill out long forms I hope that they will be able to use video camera evidence or to radio through details to the control centre, rather than having to go through the stop-and-search forms. As the Secretary of State might know, I serve as a special constable, and I have done quite a lot of stop and searches. The report says that it takes seven or eight minutes to fill in the forms, but my experience is that it takes much longer than that, because the person being stopped and searched often does not want to co-operate with the police. Outside Wales—I am thinking of London—people who are stopped often do not speak English, and although that is not their fault, it adds to the time it takes. Simple things such as inclement weather can also have an effect. When two police officers want to stop and search three people, it can take upwards of an hour simply to go through the forms and do the search—that is much longer than stated in the report. Anything that can be done to reduce that time will be welcome, although I appreciate what is contained in the report. The report does not address two things. First, the Government announced that they would put in place an order to allow the police randomly to stop and search in areas where there is a threat of violence. Happily, we do not see such threats on a regular basis in Wales, but we can do, particularly at football matches. I am not clear how such a provision is any different from the section 60 powers that police already have. Secondly, when the police stop someone for a minor offence but are not going to make an arrest, instead dealing with them either by process or words of guidance, they will find out who a person is and quite often establish that he or she has a recent criminal record for a violent offence or for carrying drugs or knives—they will be warned about that through their radios—yet that in itself will not be grounds to carry out a search. The police are often stopping known drug dealers and people who have recently used a firearm or a knife but are unable to carry out a search even when that person is breaking the law. With all due respect, I hope the Secretary of State will use whatever influence he has to see whether that law can be changed. The Secretary of State will be aware that the Gwent area has a major problem with a lack of court facilities. Newport has been promised a new courtroom for years, but it has not been delivered yet, and as a result additional pressure has been put on the courtroom in Abergavenny and, I imagine, on courtrooms in his area. People are not getting accessible justice. The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) has mentioned that he has encountered a similar problem in his area, too. I hope that the Secretary of State will use whatever influence he has to ensure that promises about new courtrooms with modern, up-to-date facilities are implemented.