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Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

My Lords, I shall add a little to what has been said in support of the amendment, which we discussed at some length in Committee. It is quite difficult to discuss custody being used as a last resort, because ““last resort”” is a relative term. Obviously the last resort is very different in Finland, where five boys under 18 and no girls are in custody, from the last resort here, where I think around 2,800 juveniles are currently in custody. It might be helpful if we could all agree on some idea of a last resort. In Committee, I said that custody was probably being used as a last resort only when it was justified on the grounds of extreme seriousness and the danger of real risk or real harm being presented by the child. Subsequently, I had a very helpful letter of about 12 pages from the Minister, for which I am extremely grateful. I appreciate the hard work that went into it. However, it challenged the use that I made in Committee of the statistics that I felt established clearly that we were not using custody as a last resort. The Minister’s letter said that I was incorrect in that respect, so I felt that it would be helpful to put a little of that discussion on the record. The Minister and some of us here disagree as to whether the children currently locked up have really committed offences that could be described as serious and dangerous. His letter tells us that the children currently in custody have been convicted of offences that could have been serious. It states: "““For instance, robbery is essentially stealing with the use or threat of force and can attract a maximum penalty of life imprisonment””." That is so, but I understand that robbery is also the charge used for stealing a pencil case from another child in the playground, with the threat of force or some minimal force of the sort that one can see in many playgrounds at many times of the day. Although the Minister quite rightly says that many of those currently in custody have committed offences that come under the heading of ““violent””, the Standing Committee for Youth Justice says that, "““while violent offences can of course be very serious when you look at an analysis of the disposals for such offences you will discover that the majority are towards the lower end of the scale for seriousness. Almost 70% of such matters result in a reprimand or final warning””." We still have a long way to go in ensuring that we use custody as a last resort, and I agree with what noble Lords have said before me: if this is on the statute book, courts are in a position to have no doubt that they are right to look as hard as possible for some other disposal and to try as hard as they can to keep children under 18 out of custody. I am therefore very happy to support the amendment.