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Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

Yes, my Lords, but I have to find it from the legal aid budget. There is nowhere I can go to suddenly produce an extra £17 million. It would have to come from other parts of the legal aid expenditure. That is why I feel that as a government Minister I would need to have much more information about the consequences before I could support the proposal of the noble Earl, Lord Onslow. Amendment No. 86 concerns a rebuttable presumption that all youths under 18 years would satisfy the interests of justice test. My view is that the interests of justice test already addresses this by asking whether the defendant is capable of understanding the proceedings. Equally, it might be argued that the presumption could be rebutted by taking into account the seriousness of the alleged crime. But again, this would be adequately covered by the interests of justice criteria regarding the likely loss of liberty in the event of conviction. Therefore, we see this amendment as essentially operating much as the existing interests of justice arrangements do. The figures seem to indicate that the system works well in that so few young people are refused legal aid representation when the interests of justice test is applied. This has been a very genuine debate. While I cannot on behalf of the Government support the noble Earl’s amendments, I accept that—as he, the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and other noble Lords said—we clearly need a better understanding of how this is working. I will ask my department to contact the Law Society, the Justices’ Clerks’ Society and the Magistrates’ Association to verify whether they have real concerns in this area. As I say, we have received no representations at all from those bodies on these matters. I will also ask my officials to explore with the Legal Services Commission and Her Majesty’s Courts Service whether everything is being done to inform youth defendants of the arrangements for entitlement to legal aid. I will add to that the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, as regards information to be given to desk sergeants in custody suites, to see whether that can be done. I shall ensure that the results of my inquiries are published in a report and placed in the Library. If problems come to light as a result of those inquiries, I can consider introducing changes via secondary legislation under the Access to Justice Act 1999 if I am persuaded that a genuine problem has been unearthed. I hope noble Lords will consider that a constructive response, given the constraints within which I am operating. I again thank the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, for raising the matter.