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Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

My Lords, of course I know what argument the noble Earl was putting, and we agree with that argument. Ideally, 17 and 18 year-olds should not mix. The argument against putting 17 year-olds in children’s homes is that they would then mix with vulnerable children aged perhaps from 11 upwards, or maybe even younger than that. That is why I prayed in aid his argument. We do not deny its validity—in fact what I am saying now accepts its validity—but other options have to be considered. It is not a straightforward issue. We fear that the amendment is a little too simple and does not take into account the other interlinking factors that are equally important and which must be addressed alongside this issue. We spoke to the Standing Committee for Youth Justice on this subject following the Committee stage in this House. It is aware of the complexities involved and takes the point I have just made. We have already discussed with the standing committee how it might assist us in taking this matter forward. I shall set out again—as briefly as I can, as I do not wish to take up too much of the time of the House, although this is an important topic—what other factors will have to be considered if we are to change the remand status of 17 year-olds. First, consideration would need to be given to the status of 17 year-olds under police bail, which is covered by the Police and Criminal Evidence Act. Any change in this provision may increase demand for juvenile accommodation in police custody suites because, as the House will know, young people have to be separated from adults in police detention and females have to be under the care of a woman officer. This has special relevance in this context because of the read-across to the provision of appropriate adults under Code C and the status of 17 year-olds under this Act. The House will want to know that the Home Office is currently reviewing the codes under PACE and we will need to ensure that this is addressed. We also need to look at the care status of young people under such a provision. Finally, and most important, we need to consider the impact of any changes to 17 year-old remand status on the Bail Act itself. If we are to consider making changes to that important legislation, we need to ensure that they are undertaken in a coherent and consistent manner. We need to consider what the consequences of such changes will be. One issue has already been identified: under this amendment, 17 year-olds who are likely to interfere with witnesses and have been refused bail might end up with a non-secure remand. Noble Lords will agree that that cannot be right and that we would be failing in our duty to protect victims and the public if we did not address that issue. We are very aware of our obligations under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and the commitment that we made following our response to the document Youth Justice—The Next Steps. I say again that we will review how we can ensure that 17 year-olds are treated appropriately for the purposes of remand, but such a review has to be done as a whole so that it takes into account all the relevant issues. It is thus with regret that I cannot agree to this amendment on behalf of the Government, but I assure the noble Baroness and the House that we will continue working in order to change what I have already conceded is an anomaly that needs to be changed.