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Pensions Bill

I notice that the Minister is nodding, so perhaps I have said something that we agree on. That is unusual for me. There are shady business men dealing with pensions all over the show. There must not be a back door; there must be no opportunity for them to slide backwards. If there is no independent way to make sure that that does not happen, it is important that the people in charge of schemes make sure that it does not happen. The Conservative and Liberal Democrat Front Benchers have spoken of the evidence that outside organisations with concerns have provided. We must put a stop to the problem, and that is why I support new clause 6. The Minister may well give us very good reasons why we should not add the new clause to the Bill, but if we do not, will he give the House, the country and, more importantly, future pensioners assurances that there will be protection for those already in a scheme? I am told that I pick on Tesco too often, so I shall refer not to the Tesco pension scheme, which the Minister mentioned, but to another one, on to which people are automatically enrolled; they are on very low earnings, and may be working part-time. One can easily see how that sort of scheme, which has very low premiums going into it, could easily be drawn backwards and be subject to the levelling down to which my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne referred, making it simpler for employers to let someone else take the responsibility. That would be disastrous for the Bill, and for the many people whom we are trying to encourage to have faith in pensions. We have to be honest with ourselves; we know from our constituencies that there is not huge faith in pensions. We know all too well how many people who come to our surgeries are concerned about the issue. That is true not just in my constituency, which has been affected by the Dexion situation and occupational pension scheme issues. Pension schemes in general are not the flavour of the month. The purpose of the provisions is to encourage more people to come into the pensions arena and to have confidence in pensions. If we are to do that, we need new clause 6, or something very similar that will allow people to believe that those who are already in low-income and low-premium schemes will be protected. At the same time, the personal accounts scheme that we are talking about should have the benefit of keeping people out of means-tested benefits. I accept that the Minister is in a very difficult position, as he is trying to bring that about with the consensus that he has managed to get. That would all be lost if we ignored the concerns that have been raised. I will not read out the comments of all those who have lobbied us on the issue; some of them have already been read out. There is a genuine argument to be made, and there is genuine concern that it is all too easy to slip backwards, instead of going forwards, which is what we all want to happen as a result of the Bill.