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Policing and Crime Bill

That is an unreal comment. I am referring to a situation in which there is no defence whatever for going to a prostitute, whether it is a women going to a male gigolo—prostitution works with both men and women—or a man going to a women prostitute. It seems to be wrong in principle that there is simply no defence available if those women are controlled in their activities. The next part of clause 13 says that it is"““irrelevant…where in the world the sexual services are to be provided””." That means, unless I am mistaken, that a person who arranges for sexual services in a foreign country from somebody who may or may not be controlled may be guilty of an offence if that person is controlled, even if the act is to take place abroad. How odd it would be and what bad law it would be if a person in this country were convicted of an offence in this country in relation to something that had not yet happened—but which he had arranged—in a country where such activity is entirely legal. I need hardly draw to your attention, Madam Deputy Speaker—in fact, I think I may have to draw this to your attention, because you will not know about it—that in certain countries there are state-run brothels. Indeed, some brothels are organised by the state or a municipal authority. Presumably those organisers have, strictly speaking, some form of control, through rent or a levy on the takings of the person concerned. It seems ridiculous that a person may go to an official brothel abroad or to a country where prostitution is entirely lawful and find himself or herself guilty of a crime in this country. That is wrong and the Bill will need amendment. I will tell you one thing, Madam Deputy Speaker: for all the Minister's talk about consulting widely on the provision, I can tell him that those to whom I have spoken, in the police and throughout the judiciary, think that clause 13 as drafted will be bad law. They think that there will be a huge problem with evidential matters. Let us imagine someone pleading not guilty at Camberwell Green magistrates court to going to a prostitute in Taiwan who was controlled. I am trying not to be flippant, but let us imagine the problems in calling evidence, not only from abroad if the prostitute was abroad, but in the UK. There will be huge evidential problems. My forecast is that in the first year of the provisions being on the statute book, there will be few if any prosecutions, and all this at a time when the plight of prostitutes in this country is dire, because of other matters, such as pimping and drugs, to which we should give much more attention. Enough of that. What of other matters, Madam Deputy Speaker? What of clause 26? This touches on my earlier point about law that is not enforced—law that is ridiculous. Let us look at clause 26 for a moment. It increases the penalty for consuming alcohol in a designated public place from level 2 to level 4—that is, from something like £500 to £2,500. All that the Home Secretary could say to me earlier was that the proposal sends out a message. But what on earth is the use of that, when in the past few years nobody has been fined more than £250? Does the Minister know that under the fines system, which, by the Government's own strictures, now means that fines have to be within certain confines relating to the defendant's means, it will be practically impossible to fine anybody more than £100 for that offence, because they are all on benefits or low incomes? The proposal is absolute nonsense—yet again, a flagship headline that will get the Government overnight popularity. Clause 29 creates the offence of persistently possessing alcohol in a public place three times in 12 consecutive months. Why three times? It is ridiculous. Why not twice? Why not once? Why not four times? The Government get worse. Under the Licensing Act 2003, it is an offence to sell alcohol within three months to children on three occasions. Wow! Look what is happening now: ““We're going to change it to selling on two separate occasions. This is the flagship!”” Is the Minister serious? Does he think that there have been a lot of prosecutions for selling three times? Is it not an offence to sell alcohol to children once? What is the magic about two? What on earth is going on? The answer is not a lot. We are blessed with Home Office Ministers who, frankly, thrive on the oxygen of a good headline and who pass more and more laws, each of them meaningless and not enforced, and with a Government who gloss over the truth of what is happening on the streets. Until we get a Government who enforce the existing law, our crime and disorder problems will continue to escalate.