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Debate on bill on Monday, 19 January 2009, in the House of Commons, led by Baroness Smith of Malvern. The answering member was Lord Grayling.

Policing and Crime Bill

Policing and Crime Bill. Second reading debate. Agreed to on question. Programme motion on proceedings in Committee, on Report, Third reading and any other proceedings agreed to on question. Queen's recommendation signified. Money resolution agreed to on question. Ways and Means resolution agreed to on question.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
486 c517-91 
Session
2008-09
Department
Home Office
Legislative stage
Second reading
Procedure
Programme motions
Money resolutions
Ways and means resolutions
Queen's recommendation
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Speaker | 486 c534 (Link to this contribution) Order. I must remind the House that a 10-minute limit applies to speeches by Back Benchers, and oper...
Tim Loughton | 486 c573-4 (Link to this contribution) It is always a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Bedfordshire (Mrs. Dorries), who...
Show all contributions (165)
David TC Davies | 486 c574 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend welcome the approach copied from the continent that has been adopted in some Lon...
Tim Loughton | 486 c574-5 (Link to this contribution) That idea is much less insidious than a high-pitched noise. I still take issue over the fact that t...
Lord Coaker | 486 c575 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has raised that case on a number of occasions. So that I do not lose this in my r...
Tim Loughton | 486 c575-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister; he has given me a bit of injury time, so that I can finish my story. ...
Douglas Carswell | 486 c576-9 (Link to this contribution) I am deeply disappointed that the Bill does not contain measures that would genuinely give local peo...
David TC Davies | 486 c579-80 (Link to this contribution) Before turning to clause 13, may I reiterate the comments of many hon. Members who agree—in fact, ev...
Fiona Mactaggart | 486 c580 (Link to this contribution) Surely the consent must be freely given. I cite child prostitution, an example that the hon. Gentlem...
David TC Davies | 486 c580 (Link to this contribution) If consent to a sexual act is not given freely, the act of rape is committed.
Fiona Mactaggart | 486 c580 (Link to this contribution) No prosecutions have ever been made.
Fiona Mactaggart | 486 c561 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that were there a mental element, as he requests, the proper charge a...
David TC Davies | 486 c567 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a number of excellent points, with which I thoroughly agree, although he ma...
Dai Davies | 486 c567 (Link to this contribution) I fully agree with the hon. Gentleman. The influence of parents and grandparents has significantly w...
Lynda Waltho | 486 c562-5 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the Bill, particularly the measures that relate to the licensing of lap dancing and those ...
Dai Davies | 486 c565-7 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that all hon. Members have the utmost respect for our police forces. They do a fantastic j...
David TC Davies | 486 c571 (Link to this contribution) I hesitate to say this, but I met a prostitute in the House of Commons this morning and she surprise...
Nadine Dorries | 486 c571-2 (Link to this contribution) I stand corrected, and I am sure that what my hon. Friend says is the case at certain levels. The pe...
Andy Slaughter | 486 c567-70 (Link to this contribution) I generally welcome the Bill and commend much of it, including parts 2 and 3. It is perhaps a shame ...
Nadine Dorries | 486 c570-1 (Link to this contribution) I wish to speak first on part 1 of the Bill, but only briefly because I am sure that my hon. Friend ...
Anthony Steen | 486 c551 (Link to this contribution) I will not. Following pressure from our all-party group on trafficking of women and children, our G...
Fiona Mactaggart | 486 c552 (Link to this contribution) At last! I am sorry, but I am slightly disconcerted. The hon. Gentleman takes a close interest in tr...
Anthony Steen | 486 c552 (Link to this contribution) I have given the example of what happened in Paignton just before Christmas when the punters came fo...
Roberta Blackman-Woods | 486 c552-4 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the Bill, particularly the measures to give local communities more say over the establishm...
Humfrey Malins | 486 c560-1 (Link to this contribution) As always, I begin by declaring an interest as a Crown court recorder and a district judge sitting a...
Lord Bellingham | 486 c555-7 (Link to this contribution) It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for City of Durham (Dr. Blackman-Woods), who I thou...
David Burrowes | 486 c557 (Link to this contribution) On reciprocity, may I draw my hon. Friend's attention again to the case of my constituent Gary McKin...
Lord Bellingham | 486 c557 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend, not least because he has given me some injury time for my speech. I...
Sally Keeble | 486 c557-9 (Link to this contribution) I wish to focus on part 3 of the Bill, which is about alcohol. I very much welcome the proposals, bu...
Fiona Mactaggart | 486 c547-9 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not have enough time. States have a positive obligation to tackle prostitution, traffickin...
Anthony Steen | 486 c549 (Link to this contribution) I was going to say that it is a pleasure to speak after the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart...
Fiona Mactaggart | 486 c546-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a point that I was just coming to—the point that it is unfair if a man does...
Evan Harris | 486 c551 (Link to this contribution) I concur absolutely with the hon. Gentleman. Does he agree that the allegation from the hon. Member ...
Anthony Steen | 486 c551 (Link to this contribution) I agree. I believe that the punter's role is crucial to finding trafficked victims. If we make the p...
Anthony Steen | 486 c550-1 (Link to this contribution) One moment, if I may. The police tried to find the punters by advertising in the local newspapers. ...
Anthony Steen | 486 c549-50 (Link to this contribution) Yes, it is certainly an experience. No one can doubt her passion, her conviction and her sincerity. ...
Lord Coaker | 486 c590 (Link to this contribution) We think that that policy offers us the best way of encouraging men to accept the responsibility tha...
Sally Keeble | 486 c589 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister conduct an extensive consultation so that the public and the different organisatio...
Lord Coaker | 486 c589 (Link to this contribution) I was about to mention to my right hon. Friend that the Bill also contains an enabling power that al...
Paul Robert Holmes | 486 c590 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister explain why, having examined the policies of a number of countries, the Government ...
Lord Coaker | 486 c589-90 (Link to this contribution) I can tell my hon. Friend, who made an earlier contribution to the debate, that we intend to conduct...
Keith Vaz | 486 c589 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to return to the theme that I explored with the Home Secretary earlier. What the Governme...
Lord Coaker | 486 c588 (Link to this contribution) It is called a safeguard—well, we will see what it is called, but I do not believe that that is the ...
Lord Coaker | 486 c587-8 (Link to this contribution) I thank all the hon. Members, on both the Opposition and the Government Benches, who have contribute...
David Ruffley | 486 c586-7 (Link to this contribution) I believe that the intention is to deliver that result and we will explore the matter in detail to e...
Brooks Newmark | 486 c586 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend may not know that a lap-dancing club opened in Braintree, which—as he knows—is a gent...
David Ruffley | 486 c584-5 (Link to this contribution) The Bill is a smorgasbord of measures that are sometimes worthy but not always well thought through....
David Burrowes | 486 c582-4 (Link to this contribution) Unfortunately, given the limited time, I must carry on. Those are the experiences of those entering...
David Burrowes | 486 c581-2 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David T.C. Davies), who showed hi...
David TC Davies | 486 c580-1 (Link to this contribution) Well, the law is already there to deal with the issue, as the hon. Lady knows. The measure would en...
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c526-7 (Link to this contribution) On the first point, as my hon. Friend will see if she looks at how the provisions on rehabilitation ...
Lynne Jones | 486 c526 (Link to this contribution) I thank my right hon. Friend for giving way. Does she agree that what she proposes is further to cri...
David Leslie Taylor | 486 c527 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has spoken of the need for the Government—and, indeed, the Opposition—to be frank...
Lord Grayling | 486 c527 (Link to this contribution) I begin by thanking the Home Secretary for her kind words; I look forward to debating with her exten...
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c525 (Link to this contribution) In putting together the tackling demand review, we actually spent quite a lot of time looking at int...
Brian Iddon | 486 c525 (Link to this contribution) I thank my right hon. Friend, but why have the Government almost totally ignored the experiences of ...
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c526 (Link to this contribution) I am opposed to exploitation, whether it stems from trafficking or elsewhere. I am opposed to the fa...
Anthony Steen | 486 c525 (Link to this contribution) I would like some clarification of clause 13. Is the Home Secretary actually trying to drive prostit...
Lord Grayling | 486 c528-9 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that I would want to employ the hon. Gentleman as my accountant. Let me point out to h...
Speaker | 486 c528 (Link to this contribution) Order. As the hon. Gentleman knows, interventions must be brief.
Lord Bellingham | 486 c529 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my hon. Friend on his excellent promotion. Does he agree that there is every danger t...
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c524-5 (Link to this contribution) It is precisely to achieve a shift from the criminalisation of, and focus on, women involved in pros...
Madeleine Moon | 486 c524 (Link to this contribution) Unions such as the GMB are working with women in the sex trade, and they are concerned that the meas...
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c524 (Link to this contribution) Now I regret giving way to the hon. Gentleman, because I do not know the answer to that question. Ho...
Humfrey Malins | 486 c524 (Link to this contribution) The Home Secretary is very generous. She talks about the Government's determination and success in e...
Humfrey Malins | 486 c523 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way on that very point?
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c523 (Link to this contribution) No. As I think I have discussed with my right hon. Friend before, the conditions in the code will ap...
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c525 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not believe that focusing and turning the legal spotlight on to men who choose to pay to ha...
Evan Harris | 486 c525 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the fact that the Government signed and ratified the convention on trafficking, which prov...
Lord Grayling | 486 c532 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for my hon. Friend's comments as well. One question is: why would we have any confiden...
Humfrey Malins | 486 c532 (Link to this contribution) I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend on taking up his new post. On clause 13, does he not agree that ...
Lord Grayling | 486 c533 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady makes a very good point. There are many things missing from this Bill that we would h...
Lynne Jones | 486 c533 (Link to this contribution) Does that not also mean that men who discover that a woman is trafficked or controlled will be less ...
Lord Grayling | 486 c533-4 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his kind comments. He will know from his own constitue...
Lord Blunkett | 486 c533 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his appointment as shadow Home Secretary. If he were Home Secre...
Keith Vaz | 486 c534-5 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling) on his maiden speech as shadow H...
Margaret Moran | 486 c535 (Link to this contribution) I endorse my right hon. Friend's sentiments. Is he aware that alcohol is 69 per cent. cheaper than i...
Keith Vaz | 486 c535 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend, who is a distinguished member of the Select Committee, is absolutely right. This is ...
Sally Keeble | 486 c535 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend join me in paying tribute to the many police officers and police community...
Keith Vaz | 486 c529-30 (Link to this contribution) I warmly congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his appointment as the new shadow Home Secretary. I know...
Lord Grayling | 486 c529 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that the hon. Lady has not been listening to the comments of my hon. Friends on the Conse...
Roberta Blackman-Woods | 486 c529 (Link to this contribution) I hope the hon. Gentleman will acknowledge that it was a 10-minute Bill introduced by a Labour Membe...
Lord Grayling | 486 c529 (Link to this contribution) I share my hon. Friend's concerns. It will be for Ministers to demonstrate in Committee that that wi...
Tim Loughton | 486 c530-1 (Link to this contribution) I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend on his recent appointment. Does he acknowledge that the problem ...
Lord Grayling | 486 c530 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted that the hon. Lady is keen to find out what our policies are for the future, because ...
Sally Keeble | 486 c530 (Link to this contribution) I welcome what the hon. Gentleman has said about the need to support measures to tackle binge drinki...
Lord Grayling | 486 c530 (Link to this contribution) I share the right hon. Gentleman's concern, and I look forward to reading his report. He will not be...
Lord Grayling | 486 c531 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point, and it is a sign of the failure of this Government's p...
Lord Grayling | 486 c532 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his congratulations. I understand exactly where he is coming fro...
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c523 (Link to this contribution) We are still consulting on the fine detail, but perhaps I can assure my hon. Friend that it is obvio...
John Grogan | 486 c523 (Link to this contribution) Would it be possible to give a commitment to publish the mandatory code for alcohol retailers before...
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c523 (Link to this contribution) I cannot promise my hon. Friend that we will do that before the Committee stage, but while the Bill ...
Keith Vaz | 486 c523 (Link to this contribution) I have noted the Home Secretary's answer to the chairman of the all-party group on beer, my hon. Fri...
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c522 (Link to this contribution) I will come on to explain precisely how we intend to do that, which I hope will reassure my hon. Fri...
David Burrowes | 486 c522 (Link to this contribution) I would be grateful if the Home Secretary could clarify whether the offences in the Bill will lead t...
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c522 (Link to this contribution) No, it is a sign of the fact that, having received representations—not just from the Mayor, but from...
Humfrey Malins | 486 c522 (Link to this contribution) Will the Home Secretary give way?
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c522-3 (Link to this contribution) No, I will make a bit of progress, because other hon. Members are limited in their ability to make c...
Humfrey Malins | 486 c521-2 (Link to this contribution) The Home Secretary is being generous. Under clause 26 the"““penalty for offence of consuming alcohol...
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c522 (Link to this contribution) Let me say in response to the hon. Gentleman that not only are more and more people applying for des...
Sally Keeble | 486 c521 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the overall reduction in crime to which my right hon. Friend referred. Does she agree that...
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c521 (Link to this contribution) Yes, we will. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that despite the welcome news that fewer young peop...
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c520 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that my right hon. Friend will therefore be pleased to know that I said just before Christ...
Mark Field | 486 c520 (Link to this contribution) The Home Secretary referred to improving and enhancing police accountability. As a Member of Parliam...
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c520-1 (Link to this contribution) I know that the Mayor has called for that, not least in his briefing for this debate, although I won...
Margaret Moran | 486 c520 (Link to this contribution) I welcome my right hon. Friend's comments about public engagement, and I thank her for making Luton ...
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c520 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has a very good record of challenging both the Government and the police force to use...
Chris Huhne | 486 c542 (Link to this contribution) I do not disagree with the right hon. Gentleman that we need to take a stand on the issue or that pr...
Keith Vaz | 486 c542 (Link to this contribution) Of course, one must be cautious in this area, but the fact is that the availability of cheap alcohol...
Chris Huhne | 486 c541-2 (Link to this contribution) I am not giving way a third time. I need to make some progress. We would urgently review the police...
Lord Blunkett | 486 c541 (Link to this contribution) Can we clarify the difference between income and expenditure? I am talking about income raised for s...
Chris Huhne | 486 c541 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is right; if we apply substantial charges to people they will resent it, wh...
Lord Blunkett | 486 c540 (Link to this contribution) May I follow the hon. Gentleman's logic on the abolition of the ID card scheme to spend money on the...
Chris Huhne | 486 c540-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the former Home Secretary for his intervention. We have set out clearly the savings...
Rob Marris | 486 c539 (Link to this contribution) I note the argument the hon. Gentleman is making and I wonder whether he could elucidate how far his...
Chris Huhne | 486 c539-40 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman may know, local funding for the police has been steadily increasing as the amo...
Chris Huhne | 486 c537-8 (Link to this contribution) I am always delighted to follow the right hon. Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz). He gave some ...
Keith Vaz | 486 c537 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point. I do lose minutes, by the way, as that was the third inte...
Chris Huhne | 486 c538-9 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point about his local police force, which is, by the way, an extre...
Roger Williams | 486 c538 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point about detection being a huge deterrent against crime. The Gr...
David TC Davies | 486 c536 (Link to this contribution) Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that if we are to pursue a policy of killing the demand, as it w...
Keith Vaz | 486 c536 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. It is very difficult. Ministers have used the phrase, ““Let ...
Anthony Steen | 486 c536-7 (Link to this contribution) May I thank the Chairman of the Select Committee on Home Affairs for his generous comments? I want t...
Keith Vaz | 486 c535-6 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to join my hon. Friend in praising the work not only of the police in Northampton—I am su...
Keith Vaz | 486 c536 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman for a few seconds, because he is on the Select Committee.
Fiona Mactaggart | 486 c546 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is probably not aware that a child beggar in my constituency was at the centre of...
Humfrey Malins | 486 c546 (Link to this contribution) Of course nobody would endorse a man's doing such a thing, but does the hon. Lady think that he ough...
Fiona Mactaggart | 486 c546 (Link to this contribution) I wish to speak mainly about the part of the Bill dealing with prostitution. The harm that prostitut...
David TC Davies | 486 c546 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Lady aware that Europol believes that trafficking children for begging is an even bigger...
Chris Huhne | 486 c544 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I will come to that precisely in the next section of my speech, and the hon. Lady should interv...
Fiona Mactaggart | 486 c544 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman explain why a provision that criminalises paying for sex with a woman who is...
Chris Huhne | 486 c545 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that the matter is as clear-cut as the hon. Lady suggests. I am here as an economist; ...
Fiona Mactaggart | 486 c544-5 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the reason why there have been no convictions in Finland is that ...
Chris Huhne | 486 c545 (Link to this contribution) I take the hon. Gentleman's point, and I am grateful for that clarification. In sum, this is a rag-...
Humfrey Malins | 486 c545 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point. He talks about the reluctance of juries to convict in Fin...
Chris Huhne | 486 c542 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that intervention. As I said, I do not deny that that is part of ...
Rob Marris | 486 c542 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman comes up against the very problem that he delineated before: the balance between ...
Chris Huhne | 486 c543 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has long experience of accusing me of contradiction in many different contexts, b...
Chris Huhne | 486 c543-4 (Link to this contribution) I agree, and I am sympathetic to the case of the hon. Gentleman's constituent. The Gary Mackinnon ca...
Keith Vaz | 486 c519 (Link to this contribution) What steps is the Home Secretary taking to ensure that her Department passes on the good practice of...
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c519 (Link to this contribution) Some of the congratulations that I offered were to the police themselves. As the hon. Gentleman argu...
Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 486 c519 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the Home Secretary's paean of self-congratulatory humbug. Perhaps she would ...
Rob Marris | 486 c518 (Link to this contribution) I suggest to my right hon. Friend that the Government's manifold success in tackling crime has been ...
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c518 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that my hon. Friend will be interested to know that during the 11 years of this Government...
Bob Spink | 486 c518-9 (Link to this contribution) I generally welcome the Bill, and I will support it. Following the point just made, does the right h...
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c519 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is exactly right. In the tiered approach that we propose for tackling under-age d...
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c518 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend makes an important point about a project in which he has taken a personal inter...
Andrew Pelling | 486 c518 (Link to this contribution) In the past, attempts have been made to engage the community through the use of neighbourhood panels...
David TC Davies | 486 c517 (Link to this contribution) Could the Home Secretary confirm that someone's chances of being a victim of a violent crime such as...
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c517 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. Before I start, may I welcome the hon. Memb...
Alun Michael | 486 c517 (Link to this contribution) Would my right hon. Friend take this opportunity to acknowledge the benefits that have come from the...
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c517 (Link to this contribution) No, I am not willing to accept that. What is more, and I am sure that we will get the chance to expl...
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c525 (Link to this contribution) I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton, South-East (Dr. Iddon).
David Burrowes | 486 c543 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, although the proposals in part 5 seek to improve the situation i...
Sally Keeble | 486 c542 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman concede that Alcohol Concern—quoting research, I think, by Sheffield univers...
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 486 c518 (Link to this contribution) I obviously do not know the details of the circumstances that the hon. Gentleman describes, but it i...
Humfrey Malins | 486 c561-2 (Link to this contribution) That is an unreal comment. I am referring to a situation in which there is no defence whatever for g...
Anthony Steen | 486 c531-2 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my hon. Friend on taking up his new post; we are delighted to see him in it. On the t...
David Kidney | 486 c522 (Link to this contribution) I am at one with my right hon. Friend in wanting to stamp out excessive and irresponsible drinking, ...
Subjects
Children Codes of practice Accountability Crime prevention Crime Alcoholic drinks Crimes of violence Cannabis Assets Anti-social behaviour Licensing Drugs Human trafficking Police Powers Public appointments Public places Misuse Police authorities Prices Prostitution Sales Young people Sexual offences Supermarkets Sex establishments Detection rates
Legislation
Policing and Crime Bill 2008-09
Link
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