---

Digital Economy Bill [HL]

I and the House are grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, for making that point at this stage. The more substantial point I am seeking to deal with is whether we are about criminalisation—we are not. What are we seeking to deal with which causes the noble Earl, Lord Razzall—sorry, the noble Lord, Lord Razzall—concern in the amendment? As he expressed in his opening remarks, consumers and consumer organisations are greatly concerned about the issue of actions by certain law firms, graphically expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. These firms have acted on behalf of rights holders and obtained, on the basis of evidence of infringement, thousands of names and addresses via court orders. They then sent letters to those identified telling them that they could pay something like £500 for the case to be dropped or face court action. Of course, there was the possibility that the court action might involve much greater amounts indeed. I am aware that several people have claimed that the allegations have no foundation but are nevertheless reluctant to risk defending the action in court. We can all see why people would react in this way. The idea, as I understand it behind the amendment, is to require rights holders to use the provisions we are making available to them through this legislation rather than resort to measures adopted in the examples we all find have been the subject of abuse. I have already sought to indicate that I have great sympathy with that proposition. It is not the Government’s intention through this legislation to weaken the ability of rights holders to protect their copyright material. I want to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Howard, on that point. This includes their ability to use the existing law to defend themselves against online infringement. We all recognise that there has to be effective action available. The noble Lord, Lord Triesman, identified the issue of rights holders. To give one illustration, James Cameron’s film "Avatar" had one of the most successful launches of any film in the history of the cinema, but it has been calculated that there were 300,000 downloads on the day it was released. Both James Cameron and the backers of "Avatar", who are not without resources, may be well able to stand that degree of activity; after all, the film is due to gross several times its production costs, which run into hundreds of millions. But it is indicative of what can go on, and others may be in a position where the whole of their potential profit would be lost in these circumstances. The issue then arises, again expressed by my noble friend Lord Triesman and supported by the noble Lord, Lord Birt, of where our creative industries and creative minds are going to be if they are stripped of the rewards of their enterprise, activity and creativity. That is a serious issue for the British economy; the creative industries play a substantial role in the jobs/welfare economy of our society. The Government are concerned about this problem, which needs to be addressed. We need to get the balance right, which is why this is merely the first of what are bound to be more detailed debates on more detailed amendments over the next few clauses. We also have to address the issue of principle in the Bill. We have a great deal of time in which to address these matters, so we do not need to put all our eggs into the basket of this amendment. The initial obligations on internet service providers under the Bill are based in part on making the existing law more effective. Rather than resorting to a scattergun approach, copyright owners will be able to focus their attentions on those who appear to be infringing most. We expect copyright owners to use existing law to obtain their details through a court order and take action against them to defend their rights, and to demonstrate that this is not a risk-free activity. Such action is an essential element of the deterrent effect of the initial obligations. Because the Bill provides a much more effective way of defending copyright owners’ rights, we are confident that most responsible copyright owners will want to work through this process. I accept that this will not prevent those who see this more as a revenue-generating activity from using existing law, but it is of course the opportunity to defend an action if someone is convinced that they have indeed been accused without good cause. Removing the ability of responsible copyright owners to protect themselves would be a gross overreaction. Of course there may be cases—business software, for example—where each infringement could equate to thousands of pounds of products unlawfully obtained, and it is sensible and appropriate for the copyright owners in those circumstances to use the existing system, but the concern behind the amendment is not something that this legislation can properly address. On that basis I sympathise with the rather jaundiced view that the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, takes of the actions of particular firms; we appreciate that point. I hope I can assure the House that we will investigate further with the Ministry of Justice and others within the Government with an interest to see if there are other ways in which the bullying activity identified by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, can be addressed. There is no doubt, though, and this debate has reflected all dimensions of the issue, that, first, there are rights that need to be safeguarded, and, secondly, some are in a position where they can appropriately use existing legislation and can pursue the force of law in those terms. However, we certainly have to address the fact which my noble friend Lord Mitchell identified—that great activity goes on at the other end of fraudulent activity. It is innocent activity by people who think that they are doing no wrong. Within that framework, the Bill has a much softer approach on the process by which people who are engaged in activity that is not acceptable and not lawful will be warned and given the opportunity to correct their behaviour. We are not talking about criminal sanctions with regard to such activity at all. I hope that it will be recognised by the Committee that this has been an extremely useful debate. The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, asked me a particular question. We have put in the Library a document about the Bill, Online Infringement of Copyright: The Details. In it, we have spelled out process in some detail. Copies are available in the Library and I imagine elsewhere too. I will happily send the noble Baroness a copy of that document, because it indicates the careful way in which we are addressing this issue. We are at the beginning of very substantive debates in which will be able to deal with every nuance of these matters. However, I hope that the noble Lord will feel that he can safely withdraw his amendment at this stage.