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Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Tuesday, 12 January 2010, in the House of Lords.

Digital Economy Bill [HL]

Digital Economy Bill (HL). Lords committee stage second day. Clauses 2 and 3 agreed to. Clause 4 under consideration.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
716 c402-75 
Session
2009-10
Department
Department for Business, Innovation and Skills
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Deposited Paper DEP2010-0249
Thursday, 28 January 2010
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2010-0247
Thursday, 28 January 2010
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Lucas | 716 c424 (Link to this contribution) May I offer the noble Lord my congratulations on the result of that draw?
Lord Triesman | 716 c424 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may start with an apology. I was unable to attend Second Reading, and I know that it is un...
Show all contributions (157)
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 716 c423-4 (Link to this contribution) I support what the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, said, and my noble friend’s amendment. I am glad that we ...
Lord Lucas | 716 c422-3 (Link to this contribution) I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, has just said. We have to be careful about setting ...
Lord Mitchell | 716 c422 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, like the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, I may be in danger of saying something that applies to o...
Viscount Bridgeman | 716 c422 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I must declare an interest, as my wife has a photographic archive and manages a collecting...
Lord Howard of Rising | 716 c421-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, although we on these Benches cannot agree with the amendment, we not should look to preven...
Earl of Erroll | 716 c421 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for clearing that up, in which case, I shall not have to repeat it for the ne...
Lord Clement-Jones | 716 c421 (Link to this contribution) I point out with the greatest respect to the noble Earl that I think that he is speaking to the next...
Earl of Erroll | 716 c469-70 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for casting aspersions—I know that I should not have done so—but it would not normally b...
Lord Lucas | 716 c470-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is very important that the Government should flesh out their ideas of how threshold wil...
Lord Razzall | 716 c471 (Link to this contribution) 54: Clause 4, page 6, line 20, leave out second "the" and insert "a"
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 716 c468-9 (Link to this contribution) I still contend that that is an extrapolation. We are talking about a graduated response, but there ...
Lord Lucas | 716 c469 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, to come back to the question of figures, I really do not think the Government can get away...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 716 c469 (Link to this contribution) I have acknowledged the importance of this matter but we have not started a moral panic. We have not...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 716 c461 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I understand the important point that the noble Lord makes. The code is important because ...
Lord Lucas | 716 c461-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister hangs on to the principle that the subscriber must be the one with whom the b...
Lord Clement-Jones | 716 c461 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister talked about darker purposes. No one quarrels with the concept of the real tr...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 716 c458 (Link to this contribution) That is always a defence in terms of any ongoing sanction. However, they do not need a defence to th...
Lord Lucas | 716 c458 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister admit that we should not attach a liability to someone who has done all that could...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 716 c458 (Link to this contribution) Let me be clear about one aspect which has clouded this debate and ought not be introduced again bec...
Earl of Erroll | 716 c458 (Link to this contribution) So I am not the subscriber on the parliamentary network, Parliament is; or I am the subscriber altho...
Lord Lucas | 716 c459 (Link to this contribution) Can the noble Lord enlighten me, and indeed I suspect everybody in the technical world, as to how it...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 716 c459 (Link to this contribution) That is right. It is a defence if the subscriber can identify that the connection has been hijacked ...
Lord Whitty | 716 c459 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend is being a little disingenuous. We are not talking about simply who receives the let...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 716 c468 (Link to this contribution) At this stage, how has the Minister arrived at the assessment that we are not facing half a million ...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 716 c468 (Link to this contribution) I am dismissing the figures not lightly but seriously, because I do not think that they are based on...
Earl of Erroll | 716 c468 (Link to this contribution) There can be no evidence because we are going into unknown territory, but the British Phonographic I...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 716 c462 (Link to this contribution) In response to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, I agree with everything he said about what is necessary. ...
Earl of Erroll | 716 c462 (Link to this contribution) It may assist the noble Lord to know that if you download from home, you are going straight out on t...
Lord Lucas | 716 c463 (Link to this contribution) 52: Clause 4, page 6, line 19, at end insert— "( ) sets out the value of the infringement on the bas...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 716 c462-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this has been an interesting debate. I thank all noble Lords who have drawn the Minister o...
Lord Howard of Rising | 716 c465 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, these amendments would require rights holders to provide the value of the alleged infringe...
Lord Lucas | 716 c464 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in moving Amendment 52, I shall speak to the other amendments in this group. We come to th...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 716 c466-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the purpose of these amendments is to add the value of the infringement to the description...
Earl of Erroll | 716 c465-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will make a couple of points on this, because it is a very important issue. Are we talki...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 716 c453 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I must confess that I was not sure what the noble Lord is trying to achieve with this amen...
Lord Clement-Jones | 716 c452-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, what the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, has just uttered in terms of the width of the provisions...
Lord Clement-Jones | 716 c452 (Link to this contribution) 41: Clause 4, page 6, line 8, leave out "by means of the" and insert "while connected to the interne...
Lord Whitty | 716 c451-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I clearly will withdraw the amendment. For the record, I think that I omitted to declare m...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 716 c451 (Link to this contribution) Inspiration and information from the Box says yes.
Earl of Erroll | 716 c451 (Link to this contribution) Can I raise one other point, which is not on the key point list? The Minister mentioned that this wa...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 716 c451 (Link to this contribution) I am an optimist. I always travel in hope, so let us hope that, whether it is a height that we have ...
Lord Clement-Jones | 716 c450 (Link to this contribution) You could say that we will fall into that pit when we come to it.
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 716 c450 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it might be useful to write on these complicated issues. We should be wary of saying that ...
Lord Lucas | 716 c449-50 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very content with the answer that the noble Lord has given me on the questions I aske...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 716 c457-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken on these four amendments. The noble Earl, Lor...
Lord Clement-Jones | 716 c457 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment of my noble friend Lady Miller. This has been an important debate ...
Lord Howard of Rising | 716 c455 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, again this is a critical group of amendments. They deal with one of the most difficult iss...
Lord Whitty | 716 c454-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my name is on this amendment and I support what the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chiltho...
Lord Howard of Rising | 716 c455-6 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. The point I am trying to make is that the person living...
Lord Maxton | 716 c455 (Link to this contribution) I think the police have already taken cases which have been proven in court against people who have ...
Lord Clement-Jones | 716 c453 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply, whether he understood the purpose behind the amendmen...
Baroness Hayman | 716 c454 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I must tell the Committee that if this amendment is agreed to I cannot call Amendments 44 ...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 716 c453-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the purpose of Amendment 43 is to explore with the Government what sort of defence there w...
Lord Clement-Jones | 716 c440 (Link to this contribution) 35: Clause 4, page 6, line 5, after "infringement" insert "allegation"
Earl of Erroll | 716 c441 (Link to this contribution) This is an example of why we needed the previous amendment, Amendment 34, because it was the noble L...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 716 c441-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Clause 4 sets out the requirements that must be met to produce a copyright infringement re...
Lord Clement-Jones | 716 c440 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, these are less important amendments than the previous one, but nevertheless of significanc...
Lord De Mauley | 716 c440 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, has pointed out, Amendments 35, 47, 48 and 58 seek ...
Lord Whitty | 716 c443 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to the other amendments in this group, most of which are in my name. The amendmen...
Lord Lucas | 716 c443-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my amendments in this group are also just excuses to seek clarity from the Government. The...
Lord Clement-Jones | 716 c442-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for that response, which offered very helpful clarification. We now h...
Lord Whitty | 716 c443 (Link to this contribution) 38: Clause 4, page 6, line 6, at end insert— "( ) infringement of the owner’s copyright appears to h...
Lord Lucas | 716 c444 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I presume that it is, but I find it difficult to understand how robust and challengeable e...
Earl of Erroll | 716 c444-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I entirely agree with what noble Lords have just said. The amendment strikes at the heart ...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 716 c445-6 (Link to this contribution) I speak to Amendment 40 and Amendment 82 in this group, which explore the effect the Government thin...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 716 c446-8 (Link to this contribution) These amendments are intended to restrict the application of Clauses 4 to 16 to copyright infringeme...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 716 c448 (Link to this contribution) I shall use the gap in the Minister’s reply to check something with him. He said that a university o...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 716 c448 (Link to this contribution) We are taking a positive approach. We are saying to people, "Here are some positive steps that you c...
Lord Clement-Jones | 716 c448 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend is far more eloquent than I am.
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 716 c448-9 (Link to this contribution) Methinks that there is too much modesty there. We are talking about a graduated response. I make a p...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 716 c449 (Link to this contribution) I have been listening to the debate with fascination. I have a great deal of sympathy with the noble...
Earl of Erroll | 716 c426 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may challenge one of the statistics used by the noble Lord. He said that 50 per cent of in...
Lord Birt | 716 c426 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the phrase I used was "best evidence". The best evidence comes from Sweden. On the day t...
Lord Birt | 716 c425-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in following the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, perhaps I may remind your Lordships of the int...
Viscount Bridgeman | 716 c432 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, I am sure that we do not have to remind him that there ar...
Lord Lucas | 716 c431-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord for the use of the word "criminalise". "Civilise", which I s...
Earl of Erroll | 716 c429 (Link to this contribution) I have a quick technical point. I get fed up with hearing that peer-to-peer file-sharing is unlawful...
Lord Maxton | 716 c426-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may say briefly that this is a problem and I accept, even as a Scotsman, that th...
Lord Whitty | 716 c427-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was not going to intervene on this amendment, but in the light of the contributions from...
Lord Razzall | 716 c432-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I well understand the temptation that the Minister succumbed to of joining in what I think...
Lord Clement-Jones | 716 c433-4 (Link to this contribution) 34: Before Clause 4, insert the following new Clause— "Compliance with fundamental rights In draftin...
Lord Clement-Jones | 716 c434 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as the Minister said, the debate that we have just had represented all dimensions, and thi...
Lord Lucas | 716 c434-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is an extremely worthwhile amendment. Copyright at its heart is not a right, it is a ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 716 c437-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am particularly grateful for that intervention from the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, beca...
Lord Clement-Jones | 716 c439-40 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Lucas and Lord Whitty, ...
Lord Whitty | 716 c435 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support this amendment or something like it. The Government would be wise to accept at least...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 716 c435 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has cleverly got round my question of how the evidence is gathered by referring me to t...
Earl of Erroll | 716 c435-6 (Link to this contribution) I know that I pointed this out under the previous amendment but, looking at it and thinking more abo...
Lord De Mauley | 716 c436-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, a great deal has been said on the amendment. However, while acknowledging the statement on...
Lord Razzall | 716 c471 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is clearly not the most significant amendment that we are considering this evening. I...
Lord Razzall | 716 c471 (Link to this contribution) Yes, but if we are going to continue the fun, times change.
Lord Howard of Rising | 716 c471 (Link to this contribution) What connection does that have? Surely, if there was a connection, it would be with the gentlemen op...
Lord Razzall | 716 c471 (Link to this contribution) That is very easy, because it is proposed by BSkyB.
Lord Howard of Rising | 716 c471 (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Lord tell me why the Conservative Party would support the amendment?
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 716 c471 (Link to this contribution) 55: Clause 4, page 6, leave out lines 23 and 24
Lord Razzall | 716 c471 (Link to this contribution) I do not agree, and no doubt BSkyB will support me, but I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amen...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 716 c471 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, is being all inclusive he can leave the Government out, because we ...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 716 c471-2 (Link to this contribution) The Minister will be relieved that this is simply a probing amendment. It seeks to discover in new s...
Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 716 c474-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in view of the hour and the number of Members who have indicated that they wish to speak o...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 716 c472 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure the Minister quite answered my question about examples of any requirements but I will ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 716 c472 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for indicating that this is a probing amendment. We do not think...
Lord Lucas | 716 c474 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may pick up the noble Lord on Amendment 56. I would have more confidence in his reply if i...
Lord Razzall | 716 c474 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his response. Having heard the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, I wonder whether the...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 716 c474 (Link to this contribution) That is the whole purpose of the Bill—to actually guard against it and to identify to people the dan...
Lord Razzall | 716 c472-3 (Link to this contribution) Amendments 56 and 57 touch on quite a fundamental point referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, a...
Lord Razzall | 716 c472 (Link to this contribution) 56: Clause 4, page 6, line 24, at end insert "; and ( ) includes a sworn statement by the person mak...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 716 c473-4 (Link to this contribution) At the end of a reasonably testing sitting, it is my great pleasure to indicate that I am broadly in...
Lord Howard of Rising | 716 c473 (Link to this contribution) I have a great deal of support for these amendments. It is important that any internet service provi...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 716 c413 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for her contribution. We share her concern about rural access. The aim of...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 716 c413 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for reminding us of what I think is referred to as Moore’s law, by which the ...
Lord Wade of Chorlton | 716 c413 (Link to this contribution) The Minister mentioned the national plan. I remind your Lordships that in 2002 we launched an inquir...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 716 c411 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment. There are many admirable aspects to the Bill, but it focuses heav...
Lord Howard of Rising | 716 c411-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we on these Benches agree that the two areas identified in the amendment are crucial to th...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 716 c412 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the reports that we are asking Ofcom to compile under new Sections 134A and 134B of the Co...
Baroness Byford | 716 c412-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before my noble friend withdraws his amendment or comes back to comment on it, can the Min...
Earl Attlee | 716 c410 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the Minister’s response to my amendment and will not be pursuing it further today,...
Lord Lucas | 716 c410 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall take comfort from the replies that the Minister has given, and he can take comfort...
Lord Lucas | 716 c411 (Link to this contribution) 24: Clause 2, page 3, line 41, at end insert— "( ) the services on offer over each platform, includi...
Lord Lucas | 716 c411 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 24 deals with the same part of the Bill and seeks to insert in there the conside...
Lord Maxton | 716 c417-8 (Link to this contribution) I have some difficulty with this, particularly in relation to the BBC and the licence fee, because i...
Lord Lucas | 716 c417 (Link to this contribution) This is, in effect, a Motion of Regret. These subjects were present in Digital Britain, but there is...
Lord Lucas | 716 c417 (Link to this contribution) 32: After Clause 3, insert the following new Clause— "OFCOM report on retransmission fees and delaye...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 716 c415-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, for tabling Amendments 27A and 30A. The effect of thes...
Lord Lucas | 716 c415 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wish to speak to Amendment 29. It seems to me that most of us are mystified about why th...
Earl of Erroll | 716 c415 (Link to this contribution) I see the strong point of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. If the Government were minded...
Earl of Erroll | 716 c414 (Link to this contribution) First, I declare not a financial interest but an interest as a member of Nominet UK’s policy advisor...
Baroness Hayman | 716 c415 (Link to this contribution) I have to tell the Committee that if this amendment is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments 28 or 29 ...
Lord Lucas | 716 c413-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am less content with the Minister’s response on this. It is as though we are setting out...
Earl of Erroll | 716 c414 (Link to this contribution) 27A: Clause 2, page 4, leave out lines 25 to 32
Lord Howard of Rising | 716 c418 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the issue of retransmission fees was looked at in depth by the Digital Britain report, whi...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 716 c418-20 (Link to this contribution) The two amendments deal with the funding of content production through a system of regulated payment...
Lord Lucas | 716 c420 (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 32 withdrawn. Amendment 33 Moved by
Lord Razzall | 716 c420 (Link to this contribution) 33: Before Clause 4, insert the following new Clause— "Obligations on copyright holders Copyright ho...
Lord Razzall | 716 c420-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we now come to one of the most controversial parts of this Bill, notwithstanding the lengt...
Earl of Erroll | 716 c421 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not sure if I should be raising this on this amendment or the next one—Amendment 34. ...
Lord Clement-Jones | 716 c403 (Link to this contribution) It is always useful to have a few general words to say at the beginning of any amendment when the Ch...
Lord Clement-Jones | 716 c403-4 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that helpful clarification. I suspect that this will be one of the easier a...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 716 c403 (Link to this contribution) This amendment might be based on some confusion about the meaning of subsections (1) and (2) in new ...
Lord Lucas | 716 c404-5 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to Amendment 26. These amendments amplify the scope of the report that is the sub...
Lord Lucas | 716 c404 (Link to this contribution) 23: Clause 2, page 3, line 41, at end insert— "( ) the resilience of the networks to disruption by p...
Earl Attlee | 716 c405-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it may be for the convenience of the Committee if I speak to Amendment 30 at this point. M...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 716 c407-10 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for drawing our attention, as usual, to some key issue...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 716 c410 (Link to this contribution) GPS jamming incidents are monitored by the US Coast Guard and dealt with on a case-by-case basis. I ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 716 c429-31 (Link to this contribution) I and the House are grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, for making that point at this stage. Th...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 716 c428-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if the debate on this amendment is not quite a Second Reading debate it comes very close t...
Earl Attlee | 716 c410 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister’s response, but I have a couple of supplementary questions ...
Lord Triesman | 716 c424-5 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord. If I had any influence on the draw, I would readily accept those congratulat...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 716 c459-61 (Link to this contribution) I am not going to attempt from this Dispatch Box to be fertile on the range of defences that might b...
Earl of Erroll | 716 c416-7 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that illuminating reply as people were looking for a certain amount of reas...
Lord Clement-Jones | 716 c402 (Link to this contribution) 20: Clause 2, page 3, line 23, leave out "geographic coverage of the different UK networks" and inse...
Lord Howard of Rising | 716 c407 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank my noble friend for raising these important points. I hope the Minister will be ab...
Earl of Erroll | 716 c456-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I want to make a quick comment. Rather than leaving it till later, this is the moment when...
Lord Maxton | 716 c444 (Link to this contribution) We are talking entirely about downloading; that is, the act of bringing something down from the inte...
Lord Howard of Rising | 716 c449 (Link to this contribution) If, as the Minister says, the broader definition will cope with future unforeseen infringements—I am...
Subjects
Codes of practice Broadcasting Computer networks Copyright Digital broadcasting Broadband Sky Communication Fees and charges ICT EU law Infrastructure Emergencies Internet Ofcom Radio frequencies Telecommunications Security Satellite communications Subscriptions Television licences
Legislation
Digital Economy Bill (HL) 2009-10
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk