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Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill [Lords]

The Minister makes a fair point, but let me explain what I hope to hear more of when he winds up the debate. I want him to flesh out in a little more detail than we have hitherto heard how the Government have come to make their analysis on disproportionality and have reached the conclusion that the balance of the scales now lies very definitely in favour of an outright ban. While expressing a shared concern with the British Government about the humanitarian impact of cluster munitions, the United States has already publicly stated the following in a 2008 State Department statement of American policy:""Cluster munitions have demonstrated military utility. Their elimination from US stockpiles would put the lives of its soldiers and those of its coalition partners at risk. Moreover, cluster munitions can often result in much less collateral damage than unitary weapons, such as a larger bomb or larger artillery shell would cause, if used for the same mission."" It is important that the Government spell out with great clarity why they have come to a different conclusion from that reached by the Government of the United States in respect of the safety of their armed forces. As the Minister indicated by saying that the original stock held in this country was some 38 million cluster munitions, these weapons have been part of the armoury of the British armed forces for many years. Do the Government believe that a ban would in any way seriously impair the effectiveness of our armed forces, and will this ban—with all the humanitarian gains that it undoubtedly will bring—at the same time add to the risks posed to our soldiers as they carry out the orders given to them by the Government of the day? My understanding is that the original purpose of cluster munitions was to provide the means for an effective counter-attack against a large mass of enemy vehicles. I can see why, in military terms, this made some sense in the context of cold war planning against a possible attack on western Europe from the Warsaw pact. Cluster munitions were available to us in more recent years and we chose not to use them—for example, during Operation Telic in Iraq. However, when my noble Friend Lord Attlee, who served as a reservist in Iraq, spoke on this matter in the House of Lords, he pointed out that we did not need to deploy cluster munitions there because we enjoyed absolute air superiority. I therefore seek some assurance from the Minister regarding what would happen if British troops were asked on some future occasion to deploy in comparable circumstances, in which they might have to face a conflict with an enemy controlling large numbers of vehicles and might not have the air supremacy we enjoyed in Iraq. Is an alternative weapons system available or being developed that would give the Army the tools they would need in such circumstances, or do the Government conclude that the risk of that happening is simply too small for such planning to be necessary? I turn briefly to financing, which the Minister commented on but not in much detail. He pointed out that the Government are taking action to comply with the convention by outlawing the direct financing of cluster munitions. Some signatory countries, although not all, are going further and introducing legislation to prohibit indirect financing, as well. My understanding from the background briefing is that one of the prime reasons why the Government have chosen not to go down that route is simply the complexity of trade and of financial instruments these days. Such complexity would make it very difficult not just for regulatory authorities but for companies themselves to be certain whether or not they are in some way involved in an industrial process that, at the end of the day, is concerned with the manufacture or supply of cluster munitions. However, I note that Switzerland, for example, which has a very sophisticated financial services sector, has decided to legislate on indirect financing. Can the Minister spell out in a bit more detail why this Government take a different view? A number of my hon. Friends referred in interventions to interoperability and the position of British troops engaged in joint operations with allied countries that have not subscribed to the cluster munitions convention. Does the Bill provide sufficient protection for members of the British forces and for civilians, including contractors' staff, working under military discipline who are deployed on such joint operations? The Minister is right to say that a statutory defence is written into clause 9, but I hope he can assure the House that this has been thoroughly discussed with our senior military commanders, and that he can say in terms that the Chiefs of Staff are content that the clause provides all the necessary protection. On stockpiles, the convention imposes an eight-year deadline for a state party to dispose of all stocks of cluster munitions, but the Bill makes no explicit provision for this. We have the Government's undertaking to the House, but there is nothing in the Bill. There is no clause to impose a duty on the Secretary of State to meet that eight-year deadline. Why not? The convention also, as I read it, requires state parties to destroy all stockpiles that lie within their jurisdiction. Do the Government interpret that duty as excluding or including stockpiles held on British soil by allied—in this case, we are pretty much talking about United States—armed forces? The Government say they have had an assurance from Washington that any stocks held on bases here will be withdrawn by 2013, I think the Minister said.