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Debate on bill on Wednesday, 17 March 2010, in the House of Commons, led by Chris Bryant. The answering member was David Lidington.

Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill (HL) 2009-10

Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill (HL). Queen's consent signified. Second reading debate. Agreed on question. Programme motion and Money resolution agreed on question. Bill committed to a public bill committee.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
507 c884-927 
Session
2009-10
Department
Foreign and Commonwealth Office
Legislative stage
Second reading
Procedure
Queen's consent
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Chris Bryant | 507 c885 (Link to this contribution) That is not entirely true, because in some cases people working in non-governmental organisations, c...
Tobias Ellwood | 507 c886 (Link to this contribution) This is an important issue. Although we congratulate Norway on taking the initiative and it is pleas...
Show all contributions (122)
Chris Bryant | 507 c884 (Link to this contribution) Unfortunately, I do not get Tory party briefings. If the hon. Gentleman is still getting them, there...
Lembit Opik | 507 c884 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman is getting the briefings, they might be described as unexploded briefs. On a ...
Chris Bryant | 507 c884 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. We are grateful to Her Majesty, Mr. Speaker...
Bob Spink | 507 c884 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister moves too far away from civilian casualties, will he ignore the Tory briefing on...
Lord Spellar | 507 c884 (Link to this contribution) I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint the House that Her Majesty, having been ...
David Lidington | 507 c924 (Link to this contribution) In his proposal for a joint departmental paper in time for Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for ...
Chris Bryant | 507 c924-5 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will have to tease that out in Committee. The specific question he asked earlier ...
Chris Bryant | 507 c924 (Link to this contribution) I am conscious that I took an awful lot of interventions in my opening speech, but I will of course ...
Speaker | 507 c922 (Link to this contribution) Order. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like to leave the matter there. We have had a good tempered ...
Chris Bryant | 507 c922-4 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the hon. Gentleman acknowledges that I apologise if I have inadvertently misled the Hous...
Chris Bryant | 507 c924 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that that is the right way forward. I am quite happy to argue the case in Committee—it...
Tobias Ellwood | 507 c924 (Link to this contribution) I do not know how much time the Minister spends around soldiers, but that is an important aspect of ...
Chris Bryant | 507 c924 (Link to this contribution) My experience of the armed forces is nowhere near as extensive as the hon. Gentleman's—mine relates ...
Chris Bryant | 507 c925 (Link to this contribution) I am very hesitant to give way now, because I did so some 45 times in my first contribution, but I w...
Jo Swinson | 507 c925 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his generosity in giving way to me for what I believe is the first time in ...
Chris Bryant | 507 c925-6 (Link to this contribution) The transparency clauses in the Bill clearly enable us to do that—it is pretty straightforward, and ...
Chris Bryant | 507 c926 (Link to this contribution) I disagree with the hon. Gentleman on that point. The hon. Member for Leominster (Bill Wiggin) rais...
Keith Simpson | 507 c922 (Link to this contribution) With respect to the Minister, this happens in so many Committees—it is a good example of new Labour ...
Chris Bryant | 507 c922 (Link to this contribution) I was not questioning any of the other hon. Members; I was merely commenting on my understanding of ...
Chris Bryant | 507 c922 (Link to this contribution) If he was, I apologise, but he was certainly not in the same seat.
Chris Bryant | 507 c921-2 (Link to this contribution) With permission, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I rise to reply to the debate. It has been interesting to have...
Chris Bryant | 507 c922 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is not fluttering his eyelids, he is shaking his head, so I presume that I misund...
Chris Bryant | 507 c889 (Link to this contribution) It varies enormously from country to country. Some countries are major manufacturers of cluster muni...
William Cash | 507 c889 (Link to this contribution) It is at that level that I am interested. It is clear that there is pretty well universal support fo...
Chris Bryant | 507 c889 (Link to this contribution) I think I am right in saying that the number of countries that have signed the convention is 104, an...
William Cash | 507 c889 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister be kind enough to tell me how many signatories and ratifications there are? My inf...
Chris Bryant | 507 c889-90 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend normally makes points on Europe with which I profoundly disagree, but he has just mad...
David Drew | 507 c889 (Link to this contribution) The Minister and I might have slightly different perceptions of the EU, but one of the advantages th...
Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton | 507 c888 (Link to this contribution) What does the Minister understand to be the difference between cluster munitions and air-dropped min...
Chris Bryant | 507 c888-9 (Link to this contribution) That is a specific issue that we ought to look at in Committee. The debates in the House of Lords ad...
Chris Bryant | 507 c888 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a very fair point. Indeed, I was going to describe how the Irish Government pla...
Speaker | 507 c887 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. I think, from recollection, that the hon...
Tobias Ellwood | 507 c887 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You are giving me a look that suggests that this might not be a po...
Bob Spink | 507 c887 (Link to this contribution) As an engineer, perhaps I should be referred to as "the oily and hon. Member for Castle Point". Will...
Chris Bryant | 507 c887 (Link to this contribution) I shall now give way to the hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink).
Mark Durkan | 507 c888 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has rightly acknowledged the significant intervention by the Prime Minister in 2008 to ...
Chris Bryant | 507 c887 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and oleaginous Member is right to suggest that we must ensure that clear legal protection i...
Chris Bryant | 507 c887 (Link to this contribution) In fact, the US has been reviewing its position and it has decided that it will remove its stockpile...
Chris Bryant | 507 c892 (Link to this contribution) To be honest, I am not quite sure what the answer is to that question. There are obviously circumsta...
Chris Bryant | 507 c892 (Link to this contribution) No, I am not aware of that. If I prove to be wrong, I will write to the hon. Gentleman, but I am pre...
William Cash | 507 c892 (Link to this contribution) I was not thinking so much about the stockpiling as about whether or not these munitions have been u...
Chris Bryant | 507 c892 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman is referring to cluster submunitions that might be lying ar...
William Cash | 507 c892 (Link to this contribution) Given that live ammunition is used on training exercises in the UK—I have been on one or two myself—...
Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton | 507 c891 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood) is right that we need some...
Chris Bryant | 507 c891-2 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman has read the convention either. He will note that what we h...
Tobias Ellwood | 507 c891 (Link to this contribution) We need further clarification of the definition, as what the Minister read out would include land mi...
Chris Bryant | 507 c891 (Link to this contribution) The definitions are very clear in the convention; I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman has had t...
Andrew Murrison | 507 c890-1 (Link to this contribution) I was slightly surprised to hear what the Minister had to say about the European Union. It has somet...
Chris Bryant | 507 c890 (Link to this contribution) This is where the hon. Gentleman goes so badly wrong. He seems to ascribe omniscience, omnipresence ...
Chris Bryant | 507 c891 (Link to this contribution) I understood from the more recent speeches by the hon. Gentleman's right hon. and hon. Friends that ...
Tobias Ellwood | 507 c890 (Link to this contribution) Reverse seniority, Mr. Speaker. There could be a situation in which it is not possible to pin down ...
Chris Bryant | 507 c890 (Link to this contribution) No, I wish to give way to the hon. Member for Bournemouth, East first.
William Cash | 507 c890 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister enlighten me as to whether I should be surprised that the European Union itself ha...
Chris Bryant | 507 c890 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will know that offences can be perpetrated only by a certain category of people, ...
Chris Bryant | 507 c896 (Link to this contribution) I think that that falls somewhat outside the context of the Bill. If the hon. Gentleman wants to mak...
Tobias Ellwood | 507 c895 (Link to this contribution) The Minister mentioned NATO, which is the bedrock and cornerstone of our security policy. What discu...
Chris Bryant | 507 c895 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to go on giving way, although this is beginning to feel more like a Committee stage than ...
Speaker | 507 c895 (Link to this contribution) Order. I understand the hon. Gentleman's remark, but I should also remind all Members that the clock...
Tobias Ellwood | 507 c895 (Link to this contribution) I see that fresh horses have arrived in the Speaker's Chair, so I hope we will be able to continue w...
Chris Bryant | 507 c895 (Link to this contribution) The point is that the convention on cluster munitions allows a defence in relation to interoperabili...
William Cash | 507 c895 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving us so much of his time. He mentioned clause 9 in response t...
Chris Bryant | 507 c894 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. After the first world war, when mustard gas was used although everyone had thought it ha...
Andrew Murrison | 507 c894 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister, who is being extremely generous in giving way. Some of the non-signat...
Andrew Murrison | 507 c894 (Link to this contribution) I suppose it is a fine point, but it is one that could arise in practice. I do not suggest for a mom...
Chris Bryant | 507 c894 (Link to this contribution) Whenever we build an international coalition—and the fact is that virtually every time British troop...
Tobias Ellwood | 507 c893 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving away again. I think that our interventions are helping to t...
Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton | 507 c893 (Link to this contribution) Do not conflicts tend to be fashionable? When I was in Bosnia, we were involved in a great deal of d...
Chris Bryant | 507 c893 (Link to this contribution) You seem to be getting a very sore throat this afternoon, Mr. Speaker, given all your coughing durin...
Martin Caton | 507 c894 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend rightly drew attention to DFID's mine clearance work, and I agree with him that we ha...
Chris Bryant | 507 c893-4 (Link to this contribution) I agree. In 2003, when I went to Bosnia on the armed forces parliamentary scheme, we saw how much wo...
Tobias Ellwood | 507 c916-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention and very pleased that my hon. and gallant Friend has placed that...
Bill Wiggin | 507 c917 (Link to this contribution) The Kent-based company that won the contract from the Government to clear the mines employs Zimbabwe...
Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton | 507 c916 (Link to this contribution) May I take this opportunity to pay tribute to Lieutenant Gareth Evans and Sergeant Balaram Rai of th...
Tobias Ellwood | 507 c915 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure and an honour to be the final Back-Bench speaker in what has been a very powerful a...
Bill Wiggin | 507 c912-5 (Link to this contribution) This legislation and the convention on cluster munitions are welcome. In warfare we should always st...
Adam Holloway | 507 c912 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for telling us that. Now many—dare I say it—responsible first-world coun...
Martin Caton | 507 c912 (Link to this contribution) On a point of information, Israel is a manufacturer of cluster munitions, and the British defence fo...
Adam Holloway | 507 c911 (Link to this contribution) I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (Robert Key) for that remarkable speech. I ...
Robert Key | 507 c907-11 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support the Bill, and I hope that the House will not need to divide on it, but I intend t...
Jo Swinson | 507 c904-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman corrects me—the US was seen to use it in Falluja, but Israel has also been using ...
Martin Caton | 507 c901-3 (Link to this contribution) I suspected as much. What I believe happened was that the Government came to realise two things. Th...
Jo Swinson | 507 c903-4 (Link to this contribution) I begin by saying that my party, as it was in the other place, is very supportive of the Bill and wi...
David Lidington | 507 c898-9 (Link to this contribution) That was a measure of reassurance, but clarity on the legal point would also be helpful. My last po...
Martin Caton | 507 c899-901 (Link to this contribution) It gives me great pleasure to contribute to this debate on an important piece of legislation that en...
David Lidington | 507 c896-7 (Link to this contribution) We welcome the Bill, and it will have our support as it passes through the House. The Minister allud...
David Lidington | 507 c897-8 (Link to this contribution) The Minister makes a fair point, but let me explain what I hope to hear more of when he winds up the...
Chris Bryant | 507 c897 (Link to this contribution) I do not think the issue is whether they might be of limited, or extensive, use; the issue is about ...
Tobias Ellwood | 507 c919 (Link to this contribution) The point is made, but that shows how the argument has advanced. Ernest Hemingway said:""Never thin...
Adam Holloway | 507 c917 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that this might be the moment to pay tribute to organisations such as the ...
Tobias Ellwood | 507 c917-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention. I am not sure that the HALO Trust has been praised enough. Inde...
Keith Simpson | 507 c920-1 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has just enticed me to speak for at least another hour—he should be very careful about ...
Keith Simpson | 507 c919-20 (Link to this contribution) This has been a wide-ranging and well informed debate. I, too, wish to place on record my support fo...
Tobias Ellwood | 507 c917 (Link to this contribution) I entirely take my hon. Friend's point; he is absolutely right. The demand for the removal of muniti...
Keith Simpson | 507 c921 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. The Government Whip is looking affronted. I should be grateful if the Minister explained in...
Chris Bryant | 507 c886 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right: what we want is a world without cluster munitions. We therefore hope th...
Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton | 507 c886 (Link to this contribution) The Minister slightly skipped over the Government's change of heart. Initially we agreed to ban the ...
Chris Bryant | 507 c886 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right to raise the question of how the measure impacts on the armed forces. Th...
Chris Bryant | 507 c886 (Link to this contribution) I have a choice, but I will give way first to the hon. Member for Westbury (Dr. Murrison).
Andrew Murrison | 507 c886 (Link to this contribution) The Government are right to introduce the Bill, but I hope that the Minister is managing his expecta...
Tobias Ellwood | 507 c887 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North-East Milton Keynes (Mr. Lancaster) made reference to...
Keith Simpson | 507 c924 (Link to this contribution) Will it be possible for the MOD and Foreign Office to produce a paper before the Committee stage exp...
Bill Wiggin | 507 c895 (Link to this contribution) The Minister mentions moral peril. Will he explain to the House why the 36 people who are clearing t...
Chris Bryant | 507 c895 (Link to this contribution) I have not personally been involved in any discussions with NATO on this, but I think the hon. Gentl...
David Drew | 507 c892 (Link to this contribution) I would like to get something clear in my mind. Where we have been involved with other countries tha...
Speaker | 507 c890 (Link to this contribution) Order. It would be useful to know to whom the Minister is referring. I thought he had Mr. Cash in mi...
Adam Holloway | 507 c926 (Link to this contribution) We are talking about war. If we are going to fight wars, we have to equip our troops with every poss...
Chris Bryant | 507 c886 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has made the point as well as I could, so I need not elucidate.
Chris Bryant | 507 c894 (Link to this contribution) The interoperability rules in both the convention and the Bill deal with precisely those circumstanc...
Subjects
Arms control Cluster munitions Bomb disposal EU countries Landmines Treaties Terminology USA Non-governmental organisations Convention on Cluster Munitions
Legislation
Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill (HL) 2009-10
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk