---

Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill [Lords]

I am grateful for that intervention. I am not sure that the HALO Trust has been praised enough. Indeed, other charities do this very difficult work, working alongside our armed forces as well. The consequence of the western world's legacy—ours and that of other nations which have fought wars—of minefields and munitions is that more than 90 countries across the globe are contaminated with the remnants of war. We are responsible for sites in Iraq, as we used these munitions when moving towards Basra in 2003. Likewise, there are explosive remnants in Kosovo, Sudan, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Kenya. Many areas are inaccessible because of the amount of munitions that are blocking the roads and pathways. In Angola, I understand that 18 provinces have problems in receiving other humanitarian aid because they do not have freedom of movement because of the munitions left on the ground. The purpose of the Bill and the convention itself is to protect future generations from the consequences of the aftermath of war, so why do nations not contribute to the clean-up? The Minister said that the UK is doing its bit, but cannot we show some leadership to encourage other countries to do the same? Bosnia has been mentioned, and I remember going in there firstly as part of UN operations. I am afraid that we were very keen to get rid of our blue beret. We had to paint our Warriors in a bright white, which seemed to say, "We are here, please shoot at us." When we turned into an implementation force, we were pleased to go back into our normal uniforms, and with different rules of engagement we gained the respect of the Bosnians, Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats. I recall one very grave moment when we had to punch through an area just north of Sanski Most, near Prijedor, where we had to try to provide a road link between a Serb area and a Muslim area. It was a quite a moment for me to have to send one of my Warrior tanks in front of me to pave the way through. We did not know what was going to happen. Thankfully we were able to break through, and I believe that that crossing is still called the Bondi beach crossing point. It was one of the main arterial routes that we were able to make. We could not go either side of the area and so we then had to mark it off, and I understand that it still marked off to this very day. Children are prevented from going into it, and one of the educational things that they do when they are growing up is to learn about minefield signs. It cannot be right that they are having to do that in the heart of Europe. I questioned the Minister about the use of other institutions and organisations in Europe, and he dismissed the idea that NATO might have a role and might be able to encourage its member states to participate. He rolls his eyes, but NATO uses the munitions in question. If we could oblige the armed forces to remove them from their arsenal, that would surely be a positive step. They could then say to their political masters, "Yes, we have got rid of them. We have designed our suite of warfare assets so that we no longer rely on such munitions." That is worth exploring, and I would be happy to point the Minister in the direction of Admiral Jim Stavridis, NATO's Supreme Allied Commander Europe, who would be delighted to have a conversation with him. My hon. Friend the Member for Westbury (Dr. Murrison) made the valid point that the EU has the European Defence Agency. Why on earth is that not being used as a vehicle to encourage the moves that we want? We do not have to force the matter, but why is it not brought up for debate? The Minister shakes his head, but we could show some British leadership by using such vehicles to encourage our allies. It cannot be right that Turkey is still unwilling to sign the convention. That could mean that we go to war with Turkey as our NATO ally and find it using the munitions in question because it believes it is still okay to do so. The Minister did not explain what would happen to an officer working with or in the neighbourhood of Turkish forces if they were to use those munitions. That is not covered in the Bill—no such crime is set out in it. The crimes, punishments, threats and so on laid out in the Bill are all about what happens on British soil. That needs to be explored in Committee, and I hope that the Minister has time to answer the questions that I have asked him. The conduct of war has changed. I think I am right in saying that the Minister mentioned Henry Dunant, whose writings about the horrors of war in his book "A Memory of Solferino" in 1862 were the genesis of the Red Cross. Since then, advances in technology have taken place and our moral understanding of what is right and wrong in the conduct of war has changed. We now have the Geneva conventions, and the Minister also mentioned the prohibition of mustard gas as a form of warfare. However, even in 2003 we were using the munitions covered in the Bill. The hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Caton) secured an Adjournment debate in 2006 on the very issue of prohibiting them, and a Defence Minister said, "Not possible".