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Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill [Lords]

I hope that the hon. Gentleman acknowledges that I apologise if I have inadvertently misled the House. Several hon. Members made important contributions and paid tribute, like the hon. Member for Mid-Norfolk, to our armed forces, who have made valiant efforts—some so valiant as to lose their lives—in clearing mines around the world. Several hon. Members referred to the effort that has had to be made in Bosnia, but there are many other parts of the world where British troops are currently involved in clearing mines, training many others and providing education so that local societies can move on. I also pay tribute to the work of the HALO Trust, to which, again, several hon. Members referred. It is also worth bearing in mind that many of those who have taken the most active interest in the issue are Members not of this House but of the other place. They have engaged with the matter directly and pushed for some time for a change in the position. It is worth acknowledging that not only Government Front Benchers—as my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Caton) said—but the Opposition have changed their position in the past five years. As I acknowledged in my opening remarks, the Ministry of Defence has co-operated fully in the process in the past couple of years of trying to reach a position whereby we have a clear understanding of the requirements of British personnel working with other countries that are not signatories. The first question asked by the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) was about whether our capability is being undermined by banning such munitions. For me, it is not so much a matter of whether our capability has changed. Undoubtedly, in some cases, it would be nice to be able to use every weapon available to humanity, but we have always decided that there are moral limits to what should be available to the armed forces. Trying to reach a universal position on that protects not only our forces but our moral integrity. The hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) pointed to another element of the debate on cluster munitions, which is that they can be profoundly counter-productive. In many of the places where British troops have been engaged in recent years, it has been far more difficult to win over hearts and minds if, day after day, children are losing their legs and their lives because unexploded artillery and ordnance eventually explodes. The hon. Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood) asked about indirect financing and told us that the Swiss Government have legislated on that. If he does not mind my saying so, that is slightly incorrect. The Swiss Parliament has passed a motion on the matter, but the Swiss Government have yet to act on it. If he looks at the written ministerial statement that I made in December, he will see that we are keen to move on indirect financing as fast and effectively as possible. However, as all hon. Members who mentioned such financing this afternoon have said, it is very complex and it is difficult to know where the concept ends. What if a bank that dealt with another bank financed a company whose main business was not providing or manufacturing cluster munitions, but providing insurance for another company that did so? There are complications for which it would be difficult to legislate at this point, but we are keen to work with other countries on the matter. Article 11 of the convention stipulates that meetings of the states parties will begin later this year, after the August commencement. Obviously, that will be an opportunity for us to monitor the process whereby we move towards a much greater number of countries signing up. The hon. Member for Bournemouth, East complained about me rolling my eyes when he asked whether NATO is the body through which to lobby other countries, including NATO members that have not signed up, or the EU. The only reason I rolled my eyes is that I believe the place to lobby other countries is in the meetings of the states parties. We need to act not unilaterally, but with many others, so as to bring the whole of the world community on board. At the moment, if we acted through NATO, we would unfortunately get a rather robust reply in return. He should not doubt our determination to secure ratification by countries such as Turkey and the United States of America, but I am not sure that NATO is the right place to do that.