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Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Wednesday, 14 March 2007, in the House of Lords.

Serious Crime Bill [HL]

Serious Crime Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage second day. Clauses 4 to 38 agreed to. Schedules 1 and 2 agreed to.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
690 c759-820 
Session
2006-07
Department
Home Office
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c767-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 47: 47: Clause 4, page 5, line 13, leave out subsection (4) The noble Barones...
Lord Dholakia | 690 c768 (Link to this contribution) We have similar concerns. This deals with Clause 4, a supplementary provisionabout involvement in se...
Show all contributions (135)
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c766 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness decides what to do with her amendment, perhaps I may clarify one point. It...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c766-7 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, is absolutely right. Of course, on the previous occasion, t...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c765 (Link to this contribution) The Minister talks in reasonable terms, and I am sure that she fully appreciates the nature of what ...
Lord Hylton | 690 c769 (Link to this contribution) Will the Government look again at their list? We see fly-tipping at the bottom of page 47 in Schedul...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c768-9 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I shall not disappoint, although I fear I may. The order-making power to amend Schedule ...
Lord Crickhowell | 690 c768 (Link to this contribution) I was away when the Bill started its passage through the House, so I come to it fresh. Looking serio...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 690 c768 (Link to this contribution) In addition to the point mentioned by my noble friend, the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Co...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c770-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 48: 48: Schedule 1 , page 46, line 25, at end insert— ““Armed robbery An offen...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c771-2 (Link to this contribution) ““Ah””, says the Minister. I know from my noble friend Lady Carnegy of Lour that fishing illegally i...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c772 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid there is danger of a split on the Front Bench of the Liberal Democrats, because my noble...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c769 (Link to this contribution) Of course we continue to keep the list under review; I made that point in my comments. I understand ...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 690 c770 (Link to this contribution) I hope that we shall come back to this. The Minister has just said that flexibility is necessary to ...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c770 (Link to this contribution) I reassure my noble and learned friend that we shall come back to it shortly. I hope that we are abl...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c773 (Link to this contribution) Clause 5(3) says in terms: "““Examples of prohibitions, restrictions or requirements that may be imp...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c772-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall not answer the question because I think the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, tests me. He is a fine ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c773 (Link to this contribution) I invite noble Lordsto look at the front leaf of the Bill. I know that sometimes that may be difficu...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 690 c775 (Link to this contribution) Is my noble friend Lord Crickhowell sure that there will be no circumstances in which prevention of ...
Lord Crickhowell | 690 c775 (Link to this contribution) All I can say is that we often had cases where, by keeping our ears to the ground and using the sour...
Lord Dear | 690 c773-4 (Link to this contribution) I shall address the Committee briefly on fishing with rods and lines in rivers and on armed robbery....
Lord Crickhowell | 690 c774-5 (Link to this contribution) I, too, strongly support the inclusion of armed robbery. I entirely understand why my noble friend h...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c776 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the noble Baroness on moving the amendment as she did, because it neatly juxtaposes f...
Lord Waddington | 690 c776 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord makes an interesting point, but is there a theme behind the schedule? On the face of ...
Lord Dholakia | 690 c775 (Link to this contribution) I have no difficulty in accepting the explanation that the Minister offered at Second Reading about ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c776 (Link to this contribution) I am tempted to follow the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, and I entirely understand what the noble Lo...
Lord Waddington | 690 c777 (Link to this contribution) But murder and armed robbery are not included. There are far more very serious crimes not in than ar...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c776 (Link to this contribution) I would argue that it is the theme of seriousness. It is right that that is the theme.
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c777 (Link to this contribution) Murder is a separate category: if you are convicted of murder, it is a very serious offence, you are...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c777 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I made it clear that I am trying to find out not just the level of seriousness expected ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c777-8 (Link to this contribution) I will come to that point, but I want to finish the first issue, because it is important. The debate...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c778 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has not answered the question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Waddington: what is the t...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c778 (Link to this contribution) I answered that point, and I made it clear that these are lifestyle offences, which we drew from the...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c778 (Link to this contribution) As the Minister has said that he is prepared to consider my Amendments Nos. 48 and 50 as a sensible ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c778-9 (Link to this contribution) That is not the case. On the first day of Committee I tried to explain that we will have prosecuted ...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c779 (Link to this contribution) We on these Benches have always made it clear that we do not want this to be either/or. We would muc...
Lord Burnett | 690 c779 (Link to this contribution) Has the noble Baroness wondered whether there could be circumstances in which a prosecution is follo...
Lord Hylton | 690 c784 (Link to this contribution) In supporting the line advocated by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, I want to say something that I would...
Lord Lucas | 690 c783-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 63: 63: After Clause 5, insert the following new Clause— ““Register of serious...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c783 (Link to this contribution) When pushing at an open door I do not like to take too much advantage unless the result on Report is...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c783 (Link to this contribution) I have no intention of inhibiting the debate, but I rise just to say to noble Lords that we intend t...
Lord Elton | 690 c783 (Link to this contribution) I neglected to draw the attention of noble Lords to the fact that if this amendment is agreed to, it...
Lord Dholakia | 690 c782-3 (Link to this contribution) I rise to put our arguments in support of the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay. We hav...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c780-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 60: 60: Clause 5, page 6, line 6, leave out subsection (7) The noble Baroness...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c780 (Link to this contribution) It was unfortunate that the consultation on the precise format of the list in Schedule 8 was not car...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c780 (Link to this contribution) For the sake of clarity, I should say that the offence list was put together at the same time. There...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c779-80 (Link to this contribution) I did say that I would try not to stray into the realms of later Liberal Democrat amendments, even t...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 690 c787 (Link to this contribution) While I fully understand the family considerations which moved the most reverend Primate the Archbis...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c785-6 (Link to this contribution) That was a very useful discussion, and I want to let the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, know that I have qu...
Lord Lucas | 690 c787 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to the Minister for his reply. I agree with the most reverend Primate the Ar...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c785 (Link to this contribution) I add my support to my noble friend for the practical way he has brought forward this amendment. As ...
Lord Sentamu | 690 c785 (Link to this contribution) If your Lordships want to protect the individual who is subject to an order, I wonder why such a reg...
Lord Dear | 690 c785 (Link to this contribution) I attended a briefing last night—the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, was there as well—in which we were t...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 690 c784 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for this amendment. I like the sound of it very much. I...
Lord Burnett | 690 c784 (Link to this contribution) We also support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. In it he states that the Secretary of S...
Lord Dear | 690 c784 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support this amendment. I have wondered for a long time, certainly through Second Reading, h...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c759 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Mov...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c759-61 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 42: 42: Clause 4 , page 5, line 3, leave out paragraph (b) The noble Baroness...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c763-4 (Link to this contribution) The reference to ““mental state”” is a reference to intention. We are saying that you do not need to...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 690 c764 (Link to this contribution) That has been a very helpful explanation, and equally a very helpful intervention by my noble friend...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c763 (Link to this contribution) I shall certainly do that. What is slightly different is that we are seeking to deal with the issue ...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 690 c763 (Link to this contribution) It is quite difficult for a lay person to follow the rather complicated argument that the noble Baro...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c764-5 (Link to this contribution) We think that those issues are covered by the reasonableness provision. In relation to the acts comp...
Lord Brabazon of Tara | 690 c761 (Link to this contribution) I should point out that if this amendment is agreed to I will not be able to call Amendment No. 43.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c763 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend intervenes, it might assist the Committee if the Minister addressed the quest...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c761-3 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, and the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, for their helpful indica...
Lord Dholakia | 690 c761 (Link to this contribution) I shall be very brief. The purpose of the amendment is to ensure that a person's mental state can be...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c820 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c819-20 (Link to this contribution) I shall deal with the noble Baroness’s last question first. The figure that she gave is our current ...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c820 (Link to this contribution) If ever there were a hint that I should be brief! I can sometimes take a hint, and this is one of th...
Baroness Noakes | 690 c817-8 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that reply. When I said that it is within criminal law, I meant that it is within ...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c818-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 89: 89: Schedule 2, page 52, line 28, leave out paragraph 2 The noble Barones...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c815-7 (Link to this contribution) First, on the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Burnett, I do not think that anything is not c...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c787 (Link to this contribution) Yes, these proceedings will be held in open court.
Lord Hylton | 690 c787 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord makes up his mind, am I right that proceedings for ASBOs as civil orders are h...
Lord Burnett | 690 c788 (Link to this contribution) I had understood that this was a probing case. Was the noble Lord struck by the apparent paradox in ...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c788-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 64: 64: Clause 7 , page 6, line 30, at beginning insert— ““(1)”” The noble Ba...
Lord Lucas | 690 c788 (Link to this contribution) I shall consider that when I read the Minister’s remarks. I am not about to leap to a hasty conclusi...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c789 (Link to this contribution) Dinner-break arrangements are being finalised as I speak.
Lord Dholakia | 690 c789 (Link to this contribution) The amendments have our support. It is right that serious crime prevention orders should be made by ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c787 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to have further discussion outside the Chamber so that we can explore the issues in the i...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c791 (Link to this contribution) Yes, admonished me and indicated over and over again that house arrest is not involved. So in conjun...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c790 (Link to this contribution) The next group of amendments is rather long. For that reason, I propose that the Committee stage sho...
Lord Henley | 690 c794-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 68: 68: Clause 9 , page 7, line 5, leave out ““a significant”” and insert ““an...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c793-4 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has gone through the various clauses to which we object. It would take far too lo...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c791-3 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, for the brevity with which he outlined his amendmen...
Lord Henley | 690 c791 (Link to this contribution) I intervene only to say that I am very sorry that I was not able to have dinner with my noble friend...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c789-90 (Link to this contribution) Well, I have to deal with the rumbling-tummy brigade as well. I shall deal first with Amendment No....
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c790 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful tothe Minister for his indication of the Government’s approach to Amendment No. 66. It...
Lord Henley | 690 c807 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 82: 82: Clause 26 , page 15, line 28, leave out ““considers to have been”” and...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c807-8 (Link to this contribution) I know that the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, enjoined me not to use examples, and I am about to do ...
Lord Henley | 690 c808 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may correct the Minister on one matter—at least I hope I can do so—because my noble friend...
Baroness Noakes | 690 c808-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 83: 83: Clause 27 , page 16, line 28, leave out subsection (6) The noble Baro...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c810 (Link to this contribution) We very much welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, to our company and look forward to her partici...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 690 c806 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful. Perhaps we shall have to come to this in due course. I do not believe that is what Cl...
Lord Burnett | 690 c807 (Link to this contribution) No doubt those who make those rules will have the misfortune to have to read our proceedings—althoug...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c806-7 (Link to this contribution) It probably comes down to the procedure that would need to be adopted. Before the court heard or lis...
Lord Burnett | 690 c815 (Link to this contribution) I know that I am raising matters that have been covered previously, but I have been trying to rememb...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c813 (Link to this contribution) I refer to our earlier debate. The body would need to be a body that it would be appropriate to wind...
Baroness Noakes | 690 c814 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for that. We do not want to delay things this evening. I am trying to ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c811 (Link to this contribution) We think that the modifications would have to be consistent with the Insolvency Act. If we wanted to...
Baroness Noakes | 690 c810-1 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister for her response, which I could have anticipated. I was trying to...
Baroness Noakes | 690 c813 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply. She stressed that the reason for using the negative procedure w...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c812-3 (Link to this contribution) I reassure the noble Baroness that we have tried to identify all the relevant bodies in the list, in...
Baroness Noakes | 690 c811-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 84: 84: Clause 27 , page 17, line 22, at end insert— ““(12) No order can be ma...
Baroness Noakes | 690 c811 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for that response. I shall certainly take that back and discuss it wit...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c799-800 (Link to this contribution) I disagree with the noble Lord. His point is that if all those things are significant, then the pers...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c800 (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest as a former deputy High Court judge who sat in civil proceedings many times. F...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c800 (Link to this contribution) It is not a change of circumstance but, as I tried to make clear, if the third party had not been in...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c798 (Link to this contribution) We have excluded the bookmaker but whom do we include? Do we include the spouse, the partner, the bu...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 690 c798 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister explain something that I do not understand. How does the third party in Clause 9 kn...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c798-9 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, makes a very powerful point. I remind him that the Government are ...
Lord Crickhowell | 690 c799 (Link to this contribution) The fact of the matter is that the word ““significant”” is there not to be helpful but to restrict; ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c795-6 (Link to this contribution) We support these amendments. The amendments that we consider to be most important apply to Clauses 1...
Lord Crickhowell | 690 c797-8 (Link to this contribution) As always, the noble Baroness sounds extremely reasonable and very convincing. However, I am not a l...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c796-7 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Henley, for setting out the reasons for his amendment; this is a probin...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 690 c805-6 (Link to this contribution) I should like to ask the Minister a question. She has said, by reference to Clause 17, that it is op...
Lord Burnett | 690 c806 (Link to this contribution) I entirely endorse what the nobleand learned Lord has said, and with his wealth of experience on the...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c805 (Link to this contribution) Let me say straightaway to the noble Lord, Lord Burnett, that I agree with the spirit of the amendme...
Lord Burnett | 690 c805 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to the Minister for her response but, to be a little more precise than perha...
Lord Henley | 690 c803 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has clarified the matter. I accept everything that she said and I beg leave to withdraw...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c802-3 (Link to this contribution) I understand why the noble Lord has tabled these amendments, but we do not think that they are neces...
Lord Dholakia | 690 c802 (Link to this contribution) We support the two amendments. They deal with the notice requirement of an order. I am sure these am...
Lord Henley | 690 c801-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 74: 74: Clause 10 , page 7, line 34, at end insert ““and he has deliberately a...
Lord Henley | 690 c801 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friends Lord Crickhowell and Lady Carnegy and the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresfo...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c765-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords who have tried to assist me in untangling what remains a difficult ...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 690 c784-5 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support what has been said. It is extremely important that what goes on in this way shoul...
Lord Lucas | 690 c787 (Link to this contribution) Yes, and that is one of the dangers. An entirely innocent person can be subject to an order merely b...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c806 (Link to this contribution) I turn to the noble and learned Lord’s question. Clause 17(4) refers to the circumstances in relatio...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c790-1 (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 67: 67: Clause 9, page 7, line 2, leave out subsections (1) to (3) The noble L...
Baroness Noakes | 690 c814-5 (Link to this contribution) I decided to use a stand part debate to explore some of the Government’s thinking on Clause 27. I ha...
Lord Burnett | 690 c803-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 76: 76: After Clause 16 , insert the following new Clause— ““Obligation to var...
Subjects
Criminal proceedings Crime prevention Crime Charities Companies Crown Prosecution Service Firearms Environment Exemptions Insolvency Pollution Property Mental health Poaching Registration Serious Fraud Office Robbery Serious Organised Crime Agency Angling High Court Northern Ireland Department of the Director of Public Prosecutions Revenue and Customs Prosecutions Office Serious crime prevention orders
Legislation
Serious Crime Bill (HL) 2006-07
Link
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