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Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Wednesday, 21 March 2007, in the House of Lords.

Serious Crime Bill [HL]

Serious Crime Bill (HL). Lords committee stage third day. Clauses 39 to 60 agreed to. Schedules 3, 4, 5 agreed to. Clause 61 under consideration.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
690 c1231-89 
Session
2006-07
Department
Home Office
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Deposited Paper DEP 07/1077
Wednesday, 18 April 2007
Deposited papers
House of Lords
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Lord Henley | 690 c1231-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 93: 93: Clause 39, page 25, line 9, leave out ““But he is”” and insert ““A per...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c1231 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Mov...
Show all contributions (107)
Lord Dholakia | 690 c1232 (Link to this contribution) We support these amendments for the simple reason that they seem to contain drafting recommendations...
Lord Burnett | 690 c1246 (Link to this contribution) I, too, am grateful to the Minister for what she has said. I must not make too many confessions at t...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c1246 (Link to this contribution) I thought that I had. We think that the defence of reasonableness inClause 46 enables the defendant ...
Lord Henley | 690 c1246 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister going to respond?
Lord Henley | 690 c1246-7 (Link to this contribution) We have given notice of our intention to oppose Clause 40, but again this is a probing action. We ha...
Lord Henley | 690 c1246 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that I missed the Minister’s explanation of Clause 46. I beg leave to withdraw the amendm...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 690 c1248 (Link to this contribution) When the Minister answers my noble friend on the Question of whether Clause 40 is necessary when you...
Lord Dholakia | 690 c1247-8 (Link to this contribution) We sympathise with what the noble Lord, Lord Henley, has said on these clauses. Wehave added our nam...
Lord Henley | 690 c1249 (Link to this contribution) I was very confused and I agreed with the Minister when she said that the issues were not easy. I am...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c1248-9 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness should not apologise at all in relation to these issues, because they are not eas...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c1249-50 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 96H: 96H: Clause 42 , page 26, line 36, leave out subsection (6) The noble Ba...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c1241 (Link to this contribution) This is about someone believing that the other person will commit the offence, and that his act will...
Lord Henley | 690 c1240-1 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister go back to her example, because I am not sure that I have quite got it right? She ...
Lord Henley | 690 c1242-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 95: 95: Clause 40, page 25, line 16, leave out ““believes”” and insert ““has r...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c1242 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for her very careful explanation. I am glad that I am beyon...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c1241-2 (Link to this contribution) I see the logic of what the noble and learned Lord says. We look at the practical circumstances. I g...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 690 c1241 (Link to this contribution) It is probably extremely unwise of me to venture into this very difficult area. Can the noble Barone...
Lord Henley | 690 c1246 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Burnett, wants to intervene before I withdraw the amendme...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c1244 (Link to this contribution) I would like to add to the comments of my noble friend our opposition to the Conservative amendments...
Lord Burnett | 690 c1243-4 (Link to this contribution) Amendments Nos. 95B and 96B have been proposed to us by Liberty. They would remove the defence of ac...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c1254-5 (Link to this contribution) We have given notice that we object to Schedule 3 standing part of the Bill as yet another probing m...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 690 c1256 (Link to this contribution) Presumably anything added to Schedule 3 will not be in legislation that applies to Scotland. Am I ri...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c1256 (Link to this contribution) As I tried to indicate earlier, when we looked at the Law Commission’s list, using the same test as ...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c1256-7 (Link to this contribution) The Minster has already referred to some of the issues in Clause 46. We have given notice of opposin...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c1256 (Link to this contribution) I can assure the noble Baroness that her presence and vigilance will be borne in mind as we go throu...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c1255-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful tothe Minister. He said that the Government’s consideration of additions of incitement...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c1255 (Link to this contribution) Schedule 3 relates to Clause 44. As discussed in relation to Amendment No. 100, subsections (4) and ...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c1256 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. As he will appreciate, although we have a little while between Commit...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c1256 (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that we will look at the statutory offences; we will have a very careful trawl t...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c1257 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baronessasks a reasonable and fair question. I do not havethe answer. It is perhaps more c...
Lord Dholakia | 690 c1253 (Link to this contribution) There is still confusion. The Minister said that he would write to the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c1253 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has understood that it is the omission or failure to act that is the fault elemen...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 690 c1252-3 (Link to this contribution) One is reminded a little of the story of Alice in Wonderland in all this. I suppose one can always p...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c1252 (Link to this contribution) I hope noble Lords will not lose the plot when I respond. I preferred the first of the two versions ...
Lord Dholakia | 690 c1252 (Link to this contribution) I support this amendment. There is some confusion and a need for greater clarification. Does this pr...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c1251-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 98: 98: Clause 42 , page 26, line 46, leave out subsection (8) The noble Baro...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c1251 (Link to this contribution) I am still not convinced that the Minister has explained why the Government’s position is preferable...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c1250-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for the amendment and hope that we can cover the points on which...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c1253-4 (Link to this contribution) We have certainly gone as far as we can with this probing amendment. It was tabled because there app...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c1253 (Link to this contribution) I was trying to understand the note that was plonked in front of me. I do not often fail to understa...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c1239-40 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, that the gestation which has brought about the...
Lord Dholakia | 690 c1236 (Link to this contribution) Like the noble Lord, Lord Henley, we were puzzled by the use of the word ““foreseeable””. We have ne...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c1236-7 (Link to this contribution) I need to say straight away that the words were recommended by theLaw Commission, and we have follow...
Lord Henley | 690 c1237 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for that explanation, which I can accept fully. On that basis, I beg leav...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c1237-9 (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 94A: 94A: Clause 40, page 25, line 14, leave out ““encouraging or”” The noble ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c1235 (Link to this contribution) Inchoate means incomplete or unfinished. ““Fault”” refers to responsibility for committing the offen...
Lord Henley | 690 c1235-6 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can assist my noble friend Lady Carnegy. The smallest dictionary that I had on my desk def...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c1232-5 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lords, Lord Henley and Lord Dholakia, for theway they have put their remarks. It g...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c1284-5 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. I am grateful to noble Lords who have contributed to this debate on what is a key matter, as...
Lord Crickhowell | 690 c1284 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness and will consider carefully what she said, as I am sure will my ...
Lord James of Blackheath | 690 c1286 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister clarify a point that is troubling me greatly? I recognise that I am now so confused...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c1285-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 104A: 104A: Clause 61 , page 32, line 37, at end insert ““; or (c) is personal...
Earl of Erroll | 690 c1282 (Link to this contribution) The Data Protection Actis being cited a lot. Does the Information Commissioner have the resources to...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c1282-3 (Link to this contribution) Resources are, of course, always an issue. Every time any Minister gets to the Dispatch Box, there i...
Lord Crickhowell | 690 c1283 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for spelling out the position. She said that the Audit Commissio...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c1283-4 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I have made it clear that the whole point of using the Information Commissioner, which i...
Earl of Erroll | 690 c1281 (Link to this contribution) Looking at the amendment, I realised that a couple of points might apply. First, if we want to do so...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c1281-2 (Link to this contribution) We have heard some very interesting points, not least the powerful statement made by the noble Lord,...
Lord Crickhowell | 690 c1270-2 (Link to this contribution) We come back at this part in the Bill to some very important issues with which some of us are all to...
Lord Burnett | 690 c1272 (Link to this contribution) I agree very much with what the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, has said. These are very far-reaching ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c1272-3 (Link to this contribution) It will be a great pleasure to be able to quieten the beating heart of anxiety. I listened with grea...
Lord Burnett | 690 c1273 (Link to this contribution) The Minister makes a perfectly valid point. Clause 61(4)(a) provides that nothing in the clause auth...
Duke of Montrose | 690 c1268 (Link to this contribution) Following on from what my noble friend has just said, do I understand that D is going to be guilty o...
Lord Henley | 690 c1267 (Link to this contribution) As always, I am grateful to the Minister. I am less confused than I was at the start of that explana...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c1268-70 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 102A: 102A: Clause 61 , page 32, line 20, leave out ““preventing”” and insert ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c1268 (Link to this contribution) What we are trying to look at is the course of conduct. On the first occasion when it happens, that ...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c1277-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 103: 103: Clause 61 , page 32, line 23, at end insert— ““( ) The Secretary of ...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 690 c1280 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend has just mentioned the evidence of a rise in anxiety about privacy. I know that it i...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c1277 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, 40 years ago. What a time. She and her husband have a thing about television. We pull their ...
Lord Crickhowell | 690 c1280 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with what my noble friend just said, and she may be encouraged to know that the Bri...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c1273-4 (Link to this contribution) The patterns and trends help to predict the risks of actual fraud taking place, so it assists in tar...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c1276-7 (Link to this contribution) The Minister asked what we intended to achieve by the amendmentsand posed a different set of scenari...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c1274-6 (Link to this contribution) It is consistent with the second data principle. We have been careful to consult the Information Com...
Earl of Northesk | 690 c1274 (Link to this contribution) To develop the point a little, I ask the noble Baroness to clarify an important point: where informa...
Lord Crickhowell | 690 c1274 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way. The other day I read in some detail about a brea...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c1261 (Link to this contribution) I was careful to say that, although in that case the person died, I was proposing a case in which th...
Lord Henley | 690 c1261 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 101B: 101B: Clause 49, page 29, line 17, after ““General”” insert ““or such a ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c1262 (Link to this contribution) I have a longer speaking note than I probably need. We have restrictedconsent to the Attorney-Genera...
Lord Henley | 690 c1262 (Link to this contribution) I take it the noble Lord is saying that the Attorney General cannot delegate this and that it must b...
Lord Burnett | 690 c1258-9 (Link to this contribution) I speak to Amendment No. 101A in slight trepidation after the googly bowled at us by the noble Baron...
Lord Dholakia | 690 c1259 (Link to this contribution) I was simply going to say that the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, bowled a bouncer—to use a cricketing...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c1259-61 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to both opposition parties for their interest in this part of the Bill. Before I turn ...
Lord Burnett | 690 c1261 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for responding to the points that we raised. It was a probing amendmen...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c1257-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 101: 101: Clause 47, page 28, line 28, leave out subsection (2) The noble Bar...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c1257 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. This is a matter of concern and I am glad that he has offered to writ...
Lord Henley | 690 c1265-6 (Link to this contribution) My opposition to the Question whether Clause 59, and with it Clause 60, shall stand part of the Bill...
Lord Burnett | 690 c1266 (Link to this contribution) I endorse what has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Henley. Going back to the language used in the ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c1264-5 (Link to this contribution) The difficulty is that in Clause 41, the specific offence with which D may be convicted of assisting...
Lord Henley | 690 c1265 (Link to this contribution) Why will it not have been known until the end of the trial? I am more and more confused. I will at t...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c1263-4 (Link to this contribution) I am distressed that the confusion has descended again on the noble Lord, Lord Henley, and I am only...
Lord Henley | 690 c1264 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for causing distress to the noble Baroness but also for my confusion. I never was a very...
Lord Henley | 690 c1262-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 102: 102: Clause 50 , page 29, line 23, leave out subsection (2) The noble Lo...
Lord Henley | 690 c1262 (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 49 agreed to. Claus...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c1262 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord’s understanding is correct.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c1286-8 (Link to this contribution) I will respond first to the amendments. I notice with hurt surprise the repetition of ““suspects”” r...
Lord James of Blackheath | 690 c1288 (Link to this contribution) If the Stock Exchange is not the appropriate body, and as the DTI has responsibility for disqualifyi...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c1288 (Link to this contribution) That will take a longer answer that even I, speaking as quickly as I can, could not get in within on...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c1288-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her extensive answer. She was right to note that we were not...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c1289 (Link to this contribution) As is customary, I begto move that the House do now resume. It is also customary to name a time when...
Lord Henley | 690 c1236 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 94: 94: Clause 39 , page 25, line 11, leave out ““foreseeable”” and insert ““r...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 690 c1235 (Link to this contribution) I found that explanation extraordinarily helpful. To a non-lawyer this is all a very complicated bus...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c1266-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Henley, for the helpful way in which he has outlined his confu...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c1244-6 (Link to this contribution) I bear in mind of course the internal tension between the two sets of amendments, but perhaps I can ...
Lord Dholakia | 690 c1270 (Link to this contribution) We have put our name in support of these amendments. Clause 61 deals with the disclosure of informat...
Subjects
Disclosure of information Data protection Criminal proceedings Codes of practice Crime prevention Crime Conspiracy Aiding and abetting Fraud Inchoate offences Personal records Trials Information sharing
Legislation
Serious Crime Bill (HL) 2006-07
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk