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Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Tuesday, 9 June 2009, in the House of Lords.

Coroners and Justice Bill

Coroners and Justice Bill. Lords Committee stage first day. Clauses 1 to 6 agreed to. New clause (Amendment 6A) debated and withdrawn. Clause 7 under consideration.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
711 c558-95, 608-28 
Session
2008-09
Department
Ministry of Justice
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Deposited Paper DEP2009-2004
Tuesday, 14 July 2009
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 711 c627-8 (Link to this contribution) At this hour, I do not want to detain the Committee for long. However, I want to ask a question so t...
Lord Bach | 711 c628 (Link to this contribution) I think that the answer to the noble Baroness’s question is that it would be the relevant Minister. ...
Show all contributions (97)
Lord Kingsland | 711 c566 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister for his response, both to my amendment and to the other amendment...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 711 c566 (Link to this contribution) Before we leave this group of amendments, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, for his support in...
Lord Alderdice | 711 c563-4 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendments 2 and 3. In beginning his speech, the noble Lord, Lord Alton, referred u...
Lord Bach | 711 c564-5 (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have spoken on this group of amendments. The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland,...
Lord Williamson of Horton | 711 c569-70 (Link to this contribution) I support these amendments. In this part of the Bill we are concentrating on the substance of corone...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 711 c567-8 (Link to this contribution) The amendments in this group concern the time limits of inquests. At the moment, an inquest can be o...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 711 c567 (Link to this contribution) Clause 2: Request for other coroner to conduct investigation Amendment 4 4: Clause 2, page 2, line...
Lord Kingsland | 711 c567 (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment 1 withdrawn. Amendments 2 and 3 not moved. Clause...
Lord Dubs | 711 c566 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the support from the noble Lords, Lord Kingsland and Lord Alderdice, for Amendment...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 711 c570-1 (Link to this contribution) I support these amendments. In another context, Gladstone famously said that justice delayed is just...
Lord Craig of Radley | 711 c571 (Link to this contribution) I support these amendments. The Minister wrote to me stating that the overriding aim of the reforms ...
Lord Bach | 711 c571-3 (Link to this contribution) I thank noble Lords for this interesting debate on the timely hearings of inquests. I start by stati...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 711 c573 (Link to this contribution) I did not hear the Minister give a reason why we could not include the amendments in the Bill. Altho...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 711 c570 (Link to this contribution) I support these amendments. There is nothing unusual in monitoring the progress of cases. The Heads ...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 711 c575 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. I am somewhat concerned, reading the Bill, that the responsibility for coro...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 711 c573-4 (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in support of the amendments. In particular, I thank the nob...
Lord Bach | 711 c573 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that that would really add anything to the Bill given what we intend to do. If a phras...
Lord Kingsland | 711 c574-5 (Link to this contribution) The amendment would insert a sixth subsection in Clause 3 between subsections (1) and (2). As your L...
Lord Kingsland | 711 c574 (Link to this contribution) Clause 3: Direction for other coroner to conduct investigation Amendment 5 5: Clause 3, page 2, li...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 711 c575-6 (Link to this contribution) I have two amendments in this group, which concern the resources available to coroners. First, I sho...
Baroness Fookes | 711 c577 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendment 79, which is in this group and stands in my name. The noble Baroness has ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 711 c578-80 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken to this group of amendments, which relate to the qu...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 711 c580 (Link to this contribution) It is not quite clear how this funding is going to be achieved. Local authorities will be responsibl...
Lord Craig of Radley | 711 c577 (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes. My name is on this amendment. What has been said makes it...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 711 c577 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendments. Schedule 2 sets out the Government’s policy that the coroner areas should ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 711 c581 (Link to this contribution) That is a little unfair; I have not talked about any of the ingredients, and I am certainly not goin...
Baroness Fookes | 711 c581 (Link to this contribution) Do I take it that, like the ancient Israelites, the local authorities are commanded to make bricks w...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 711 c581 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that comprehensive reply in outlining the standards. It struck me that an a...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 711 c580-1 (Link to this contribution) Local authorities are going to be responsible for meeting their obligations under the Bill. It may e...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 711 c581-2 (Link to this contribution) That framework is all very well, and I approve of the Chief Coroner and the inspector to whom the no...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 711 c582 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to see that the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, is about to rise to his feet. I have not ...
Lord Kingsland | 711 c582 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to all those who have spoken in this debate and to the Minister for what he has s...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 711 c583 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, has raised an entirely relevant point in his amendment. Will it be i...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 711 c583 (Link to this contribution) The whole point of Committee stage is to raise issues which give the Government a chance to pause fo...
Bishop of Winchester | 711 c583 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether I am the only Member of the Committee who has become increasingly baffled during th...
Lord Kingsland | 711 c583-4 (Link to this contribution) I say with great respect to the Minister that he appears to be putting up more and more smoke in res...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 711 c583 (Link to this contribution) There are individuals in our national life who carry out roles in which they make recommendations on...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 711 c584 (Link to this contribution) I am very happy to respond to the noble Lord. In fact, I did in my opening remarks indicate that we ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 711 c587 (Link to this contribution) That is an important point, but the noble Lord, Lord Alton, will recognise that transfer of cases is...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 711 c586-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Davies. Before he concludes, will he indicate what capacity he...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 711 c585-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the succinct but accurate comments made in support of these amendments. I hope I w...
Baroness Fookes | 711 c585 (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak to my own Amendment 90A, which is in this grouping although it goes to Schedule 4, w...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 711 c585 (Link to this contribution) I should like to ask the Minister a question arising from my noble friend Lady Finlay’s amendment. I...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 711 c584-5 (Link to this contribution) I feel I should apologise for having such a series of amendments, but I remind the Committee that I ...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 711 c584 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 5A 5A: Clause 3, page 3, line 6, at end insert— "(4A) When giving notice in writing to co...
Lord Kingsland | 711 c584 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister for replying in the way that he has. I shall re-table this amendm...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 711 c587 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister for his comments and assurances and I am glad that we were able t...
Baroness Fookes | 711 c587 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 6A 6A: After Clause 3, insert the following new Clause— "Investigations into deaths of se...
Baroness Fookes | 711 c587-8 (Link to this contribution) The proposed new clause stands in my name and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Dean of Thornton-le-F...
Lord Bach | 711 c592-5 (Link to this contribution) This House is always at its best when discussing our Armed Forces. As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, ki...
Baroness Emerton | 711 c592 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes. I speak from the families’ point ...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 711 c607 (Link to this contribution) Clause 5: Matters to be ascertained Amendment 7 7: Clause 5, page 3, line 37, leave out paragraph ...
Baroness Fookes | 711 c595 (Link to this contribution) I am deeply grateful for the powerful support that I have had from many noble Lords tonight. I know ...
Lord Alderdice | 711 c590-1 (Link to this contribution) We have a great of sympathy with the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, and the n...
Lord Craig of Radley | 711 c589-90 (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak to Amendment 37 and the other amendments grouped with it. They all have a similar th...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 711 c592 (Link to this contribution) I wish to say a word in support of the amendment tabled by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 711 c591-2 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, has just reminded us that the day-to-day knowledge of war on the par...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 711 c607-8 (Link to this contribution) We come now to Clause 5 and my Amendment 7, which is grouped with other amendments. The amendment wo...
Lord Alderdice | 711 c610-2 (Link to this contribution) I will speak to a number of amendments in this group in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Tho...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 711 c608-10 (Link to this contribution) I have several amendments in this group. I should like to speak to Amendments 7 and 27 and then turn...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 711 c617 (Link to this contribution) Let me pursue the point that I was making. Let us suppose for a moment that a young soldier has been...
Lord Bach | 711 c613-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this very important debate. The noble Lord, ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 711 c613 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendments that have been spoken to. On the question of civil liability, it should be ...
Lord Dubs | 711 c612-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendments 11 and 28, both of which are in this group. I welcome the fact that the ...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 711 c617 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister thereby recognise that, in many cases, a full and accurate statement of the facts ...
Lord Bach | 711 c617 (Link to this contribution) As I am advised, coroners could refer to such matters as the noble Lord raises—inadequate provision ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 711 c617 (Link to this contribution) I am not so much concerned with the person but with the Ministry of Defence, for example.
Lord Bach | 711 c617 (Link to this contribution) As I understand it—I want to be very careful to answer the noble Lord as accurately as I can—the ans...
Lord Bach | 711 c617-8 (Link to this contribution) Not for the first time, I agree with the noble Lord. It would be a fallacy to divide those two thing...
Lord Alderdice | 711 c618 (Link to this contribution) In precisely the terms that the Minister himself used, coroners have to tread very carefully. That i...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 711 c618 (Link to this contribution) Criminal liability may involve other factors such as guilty mind, but from the point of view of the ...
Lord Bach | 711 c618 (Link to this contribution) I can say only a little about guidance, but I should have thought that what the noble Baroness has s...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 711 c618 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his explanation and for correctly interpreting the intention behind all of ...
Bishop of Winchester | 711 c618 (Link to this contribution) What is the impact of Schedule 4(6) on page 127, to which reference is made in the clauses we are di...
Lord Bach | 711 c619 (Link to this contribution) If we look together at paragraph 6 of Schedule 4, it reads: ""Where … a senior coroner has been cond...
Bishop of Winchester | 711 c618 (Link to this contribution) I can understand the noble Lord saying that. My question is whether that is the case.
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 711 c619-20 (Link to this contribution) I thank everyone who has taken part in the debate on this group of amendments, and not least the nob...
Lord Pannick | 711 c624-5 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendments that have been proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, and the n...
Lord Bach | 711 c625-7 (Link to this contribution) I intend to be fairly brief in my response. As the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, indicated, these are ...
Lord Bach | 711 c621 (Link to this contribution) Clause 7: Whether jury required Amendment 14 14: Clause 7, page 4, leave out line 18
Lord Bach | 711 c621-2 (Link to this contribution) Following the announcement on 15 May by my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor, the governme...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 711 c622-4 (Link to this contribution) My Amendments 33 to 36 are grouped with the government amendments. The Minister is right, there is a...
Lord Kingsland | 711 c624 (Link to this contribution) I have considerable sympathy with the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, but toni...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 711 c620 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 13A 13A: Clause 6, page 4, line 14, at end insert— "( ) The senior coroner shall maintain...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 711 c620 (Link to this contribution) I wish briefly to support my noble friend Lady Finlay in moving this amendment. In the previous grou...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 711 c562-3 (Link to this contribution) I have added my name to the amendment that has already been discussed by my noble friend Lord Alton,...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 711 c559-61 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 2 stands in this group and is in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Finlay of Llanda...
Lord Dubs | 711 c561-2 (Link to this contribution) I would like to speak to Amendment 3 in my name. This stems from the work of the Joint Committee on ...
Lord Kingsland | 711 c558 (Link to this contribution) Clause 1: Duty to investigate certain deaths Amendment 1 1: Clause 1, page 1, line 9, at end inser...
Lord Kingsland | 711 c559 (Link to this contribution) As your Lordships will see, the amendment seeks clarification from the Government that the jurisdict...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 711 c568-9 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 13 is grouped with Amendments 4 and 6. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, made several impor...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 711 c621 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for that assurance. My amendment was intended to probe and to make sur...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 711 c582-3 (Link to this contribution) Let us be clear what the debate is all about. I have listened to a construct of a different basis on...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 711 c621 (Link to this contribution) I acknowledge that accurate recordkeeping is a vital part of the coroner’s role and can help to iden...
Subjects
Armed forces Coroners Juries Facilities Statistics Standards Training Registration of births, deaths, marriages and civil partnerships
Legislation
Coroners and Justice Bill 2008-09
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk