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Backbench debate on Thursday, 12 January 2012, in the House of Commons, led by Adrian Bailey. The answering member was Ed Davey.

Pub Companies

Unallotted backbench debate (part one). Agreed to on question.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
538 c351-400 
Session
2010-12
Department
Department for Business, Innovation and Skills
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Show all related items (9)
Proceeding contributions
Speaker | 538 c356 (Link to this contribution) Order. I remind Members that Mr Speaker has not selected the amendment and that we have a five-minut...
Adrian Bailey | 538 c351-2 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move,"That this House believes that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills' pro...
Show all contributions (157)
Adrian Bailey | 538 c352 (Link to this contribution) The answer is that I am absolutely astonished and I shall address that point.
Lord Brennan of Canton | 538 c352 (Link to this contribution) Towards the latter end of the previous Parliament, when I, as a Minister, and my right hon. Friend t...
Adrian Bailey | 538 c352 (Link to this contribution) I shall take one more intervention.
Adrian Bailey | 538 c352 (Link to this contribution) Yes. Let me make it clear that I am basically speaking about the Select Committee reports, which wer...
James Gray | 538 c352 (Link to this contribution) I would be grateful if the hon. Gentleman clarified one small point that is missing from the motion:...
Greg Mulholland | 538 c353 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Greg Mulholland | 538 c353 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way and I pay tribute to his work and that of the Committee. H...
Adrian Bailey | 538 c353 (Link to this contribution) I will take this intervention because I know the hon. Gentleman has been heavily involved in this is...
Andrew Murrison | 538 c354 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Adrian Bailey | 538 c354 (Link to this contribution) Yes, this is a very important distinction and I know that the issue exercises representatives of the...
Adrian Bailey | 538 c353 (Link to this contribution) No, I was not aware of that e-mail, but I am sure it will illuminate subsequent discussions. I cann...
Ann McKechin | 538 c353-4 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is very generous in allowing me to intervene. Does he share my concern that the key d...
Adrian Bailey | 538 c353 (Link to this contribution) I will, but I am conscious of the fact that many others want to speak.
George Howarth | 538 c382 (Link to this contribution) I have been following the hon. Gentleman's argument closely. Does he agree—indeed, I think this is h...
Lord Watts | 538 c382 (Link to this contribution) Is it not clear that in virtually every case self-regulation does not work, and that Governments are...
John Pugh | 538 c382 (Link to this contribution) I refer the Minister to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West, who presented ...
Martin Horwood | 538 c385 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that hardly anybody in this debate has asked for the tie to go? W...
Damian Hinds | 538 c384-5 (Link to this contribution) The importance of this subject is clear from the number of Members present for this debate. That is ...
Justin Tomlinson | 538 c383-4 (Link to this contribution) I pay tribute to all the Members who have shown a real commitment to supporting our essential networ...
John Pugh | 538 c382-3 (Link to this contribution) I think that the Government must say that. The industry has been given a second, third, fourth, fift...
Ed Davey | 538 c382 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has made the serious allegation that there has been collusion with the British Beer a...
John Pugh | 538 c381-2 (Link to this contribution) I begin by paying full tribute to the Select Committee for its work, particularly for the sterling w...
Damian Hinds | 538 c385-6 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid not. We do need to make sure that there is fairness and transparency and that properly ...
Jason McCartney | 538 c387 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes some excellent points, as many colleagues have done on the basis of their o...
Martin Horwood | 538 c386-7 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the hon. Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) on promoting today's motion. He is...
George Howarth | 538 c388 (Link to this contribution) As I am ever anxious to be helpful, may I tell the hon. Gentleman that Crabbie's ginger beer is made...
Martin Horwood | 538 c387-8 (Link to this contribution) Yes. My correspondent also said:"““The local rep visited at my request this May, only his 3rd visit...
Martin Horwood | 538 c388 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman will have to buy me whatever the relevant quantity is in a pub sometime, if...
Damian Hinds | 538 c385 (Link to this contribution) The motion does in fact specify a ““free-of-tie option””. Many pub-owning companies would say that s...
Damian Hinds | 538 c385 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is correct, and that is indeed in the Government response. Unfortunately, the BIS Commi...
Ed Davey | 538 c385 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right, and that is one reason why the Government response made a big distinction b...
Toby Perkins | 538 c391-2 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid I do not have time. The hon. Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) felt that...
Toby Perkins | 538 c390-1 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to stand here at the culmination of this excellent debate, which has shown the Hous...
Baroness Burt of Solihull | 538 c390 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention. As for the pubcos, those over-relying on the property model ha...
Ed Davey | 538 c389 (Link to this contribution) The OFT found that the total volume of beer sales by small breweries increased by 50% between 2004 a...
Baroness Burt of Solihull | 538 c389 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, but the Office of Fair Trading report found that there was not detriment to the consumer in ...
Susan Elan Jones | 538 c389 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Lady accept that one problem with the current situation is that it prejudices against ...
Baroness Burt of Solihull | 538 c389 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend to a degree, but the principle of the tie is the same. We need to make s...
Martin Horwood | 538 c389 (Link to this contribution) Does not the point that my hon. Friend is making underline the difference between the kind of tie un...
Baroness Burt of Solihull | 538 c388-9 (Link to this contribution) Although several Members have a lot of knowledge of the pub industry, I think I am the only Member w...
Iain Wright | 538 c395 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is a former Business Minister.
Ed Davey | 538 c395 (Link to this contribution) No. We will always listen, but that does not mean that we will agree on every point, such as on the...
Ian Lucas | 538 c395 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Ian Lucas | 538 c395 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Ed Davey | 538 c394-5 (Link to this contribution) It might surprise the House to learn that I am very grateful for today's debate and for all the cont...
Toby Perkins | 538 c392-4 (Link to this contribution) The Minister's colleagues, the hon. Members for Southport and for Leeds North West, were deeply unco...
Ed Davey | 538 c395 (Link to this contribution) I heard the concerns of those organisations and the problems in the industry, and that is why we hav...
Toby Perkins | 538 c395 (Link to this contribution) Did any section of the representations from the groups that the Minister has just mentioned find its...
Ed Davey | 538 c392 (Link to this contribution) Not only does the hon. Gentleman not have any evidence of that, but he has asked me a number of writ...
Adrian Bailey | 538 c364 (Link to this contribution) I did not say that pubs were over-regulated; I said that they were highly regulated by pub companies...
Andrew Griffiths | 538 c364 (Link to this contribution) I think we both agree that pubs are highly regulated, but I assert that introducing a statutory code...
Andrew Griffiths | 538 c365 (Link to this contribution) I have given way twice already, so I shall continue, if I may. We have to be careful what we wish f...
Dan Rogerson | 538 c364 (Link to this contribution) It is absolutely right to point out those in the pub sector and brewing industry who are doing all t...
Andrew Griffiths | 538 c364-5 (Link to this contribution) I agree that we may well wish to consider a review in future, but as for the idea that we should bri...
Greg Mulholland | 538 c366 (Link to this contribution) Does the right hon. Gentleman find it odd that the first response of the Department for Business, In...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 538 c366 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. He and I have drunk in many pubs together over the years, and ...
Lord Brennan of Canton | 538 c366 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) said that pubcos were drinking at the last chance salo...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 538 c365-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this important debate. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 538 c366-7 (Link to this contribution) I was not aware of that. I know that the hon. Gentleman has done a great deal of work on these impor...
Andrew Griffiths | 538 c367 (Link to this contribution) We want to keep more pubs open and to stop pubs closing. Does my hon. Friend agree that all the evid...
Andrew Stephenson | 538 c367 (Link to this contribution) The evidence that I have seen does not suggest that. In my area freehold pubs have certainly been ab...
Karen Bradley | 538 c368 (Link to this contribution) I should like to add my personal experience to the debate, because I am the daughter of a publican w...
Andrew Stephenson | 538 c368 (Link to this contribution) I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. That is why I am speaking in support of the motion's cal...
Hugh Bayley | 538 c368-70 (Link to this contribution) York's pubs are part of the heritage of the city. Some of them have been open, welcoming guests and ...
Greg Mulholland | 538 c370 (Link to this contribution) Of course there are a number of factors affecting pubs, but when we compare a tied pub and a free-of...
Charlotte Leslie | 538 c370 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the Backbench Business Committee on bringing the debate forward. It is massively impo...
Charlotte Leslie | 538 c370 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for that, and I am just coming to the role of the pub tie and the pub compani...
Caroline Lucas | 538 c372-3 (Link to this contribution) That is a good point. I was trying to find something positive to say, but the hon. Gentleman is righ...
Anne Main | 538 c373 (Link to this contribution) The headquarters of the Campaign for Real Ale is in my constituency, and we host the annual beer fes...
Caroline Lucas | 538 c371-2 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the hon. Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) on securing this important debate ...
Brian Binley | 538 c371 (Link to this contribution) Is it not true, however, that there is no regulation, because the voluntary code is supposed to be p...
Charlotte Leslie | 538 c371 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a good point. One issue at stake is the efficacy of a voluntary code. Although ...
Greg Mulholland | 538 c370 (Link to this contribution) To be clear, the CGA Strategy figures, which no one disputes, show that between December 2008 and Ju...
Charlotte Leslie | 538 c370-1 (Link to this contribution) It is very obvious—this is crucial to the debate—that there is a strong feeling that the response wa...
Peter Aldous | 538 c374-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for granting this debate and to the hon. Member fo...
Caroline Lucas | 538 c373-4 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. I agree that pubs are good not just for the community, b...
Ed Davey | 538 c375 (Link to this contribution) I wanted to intervene on the hon. Gentleman before he finished his remarks, because he is a chartere...
Stephen Lloyd | 538 c377-8 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is so right: a lot of the work that I did for the FSB before coming to the House invo...
Tom Blenkinsop | 538 c378-9 (Link to this contribution) I should like to praise the hard work of the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) on t...
Marcus Jones | 538 c379-80 (Link to this contribution) Pubs are not just places we frequent to buy beer; they are vital community hubs that can be fundamen...
Jason McCartney | 538 c380 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for giving way and would like to add to his list of other factors affecting o...
Peter Aldous | 538 c375 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving that clarification. In the meantime, let me conclude by sa...
Paul Blomfield | 538 c375-7 (Link to this contribution) I represent a constituency that includes 197 community and city centre pubs, as well as five breweri...
Stephen Lloyd | 538 c377 (Link to this contribution) Pubs are a significant feature in all our constituencies. In Eastbourne, when people ask where I liv...
Duncan Hames | 538 c377 (Link to this contribution) It sounds as though my hon. Friend, like me, hopes that the motion will be successful today. He has ...
Marcus Jones | 538 c380-1 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. I shall come on to the issue of self-regulation. The relat...
Speaker | 538 c360 (Link to this contribution) Order. Time is very tight, so perhaps Members could ease back on interventions. Those Members who wi...
Greg Mulholland | 538 c360-1 (Link to this contribution) I echo my earlier comments commending the Select Committee on its excellent work. The all-party save...
Greg Mulholland | 538 c359 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the OFT said clearly that the imbalance in the relationship be...
Ian Lucas | 538 c359 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. The inequality in the bargaining power of pub companies and publicans is a central issue...
Fiona Mactaggart | 538 c359 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that my hon. Friend is talking about consumers. One of my concerns is that the number of p...
Ian Lucas | 538 c359-60 (Link to this contribution) That is absolutely right. We know that CAMRA, which has done superb work in this area over many year...
Ian Lucas | 538 c359 (Link to this contribution) I shall come on to that, and I reject that decision entirely. I accept that the OFT has investigated...
Andrew Griffiths | 538 c358 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman talks about the anti-competitive nature of the beer tie. Does he accept that a nu...
Ian Lucas | 538 c359 (Link to this contribution) I give way to the hon. Gentleman, who has done so much tremendous work in this area.
Andrew Griffiths | 538 c364 (Link to this contribution) I pay tribute to the work of the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, which has been diligent ...
Fiona O'Donnell | 538 c363-4 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I will not, because I am aware that many Members want to contribute. Indeed, in my...
Greg Mulholland | 538 c362 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the Minister, but I have given way twice. He will have plenty of time to respond. Th...
Ed Davey | 538 c362 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend give way?
Lord Brennan of Canton | 538 c361 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman surprised at what has happened, given that before the general election we work...
Greg Mulholland | 538 c361 (Link to this contribution) Not only was that code opposed by all the other organisations, but it was the old company codes that...
Ed Davey | 538 c361 (Link to this contribution) For the sake of clarity, it is the industry framework code that will be legally binding, and it is t...
Brian Binley | 538 c357-8 (Link to this contribution) They borrowed against the value of the properties, and rental income is very relevant. That is absol...
Bob Stewart | 538 c357 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend talking about pub companies that own pubs, rather than breweries that have a pub e...
Brian Binley | 538 c357 (Link to this contribution) That is absolutely correct. I am talking about pubcos and I exclude family businesses that own fewer...
Brian Binley | 538 c356-7 (Link to this contribution) I thank my friend and colleague the hon. Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey), the Chairman of ...
Ian Lucas | 538 c358 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley), whose eloquence I aspi...
Andrew Bridgen | 538 c358 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the current relationship between many tied pub tenants and large pub ...
Brian Binley | 538 c358 (Link to this contribution) I agree, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. We need an opportunity for an i...
Andrew Murrison | 538 c354 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is being very generous. How does he believe the motion might be improved or amend...
Adrian Bailey | 538 c354 (Link to this contribution) I am not amending the motion, but I assure the hon. Gentleman that in the Select Committee's conside...
John Healey | 538 c354 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way and I congratulate him and the Committee on the ...
Speaker | 538 c354 (Link to this contribution) Order. A lot of Members want to get in, so we need shorter interventions.
Adrian Bailey | 538 c354 (Link to this contribution) I will take the hon. Gentleman's intervention and then I must press on.
Adrian Bailey | 538 c356 (Link to this contribution) No, I am sorry. I am coming to a conclusion and other people want to speak. Concerns are reflected ...
Adrian Bailey | 538 c354-5 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. The short answer is that the motion is designed to provide a way forwa...
Richard Fuller | 538 c355 (Link to this contribution) My point is about the timing of the review. A reasonable person looking at the motion would see that...
Adrian Bailey | 538 c355 (Link to this contribution) The reason is that the Government started to implement their proposals for changes in the industry a...
Speaker | 538 c402 (Link to this contribution) Before we do so, I must, of course, take what I gather is a totally separate and unrelated point of ...
Ian Lucas | 538 c396 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Ed Davey | 538 c396 (Link to this contribution) No, and that action is a lot greater than any the Labour party took over 13 years.
Brian Binley | 538 c396 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Ed Davey | 538 c397 (Link to this contribution) I will in a bit, but I want to make progress. What we have delivered instead of regulation is a sel...
Ed Davey | 538 c395-6 (Link to this contribution) I will give way later on; I want to make some progress, because some serious allegations have been m...
Ed Davey | 538 c396 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not agree. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that he would take action, and ...
Ian Lucas | 538 c396 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister agree that the Government's response falls short of the undertaking given to the B...
Ed Davey | 538 c398 (Link to this contribution) Throughout my speech I have shown that the hon. Gentleman was wrong in almost everything that he sai...
Ed Davey | 538 c398 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that he would take action, and we have taken action...
Toby Perkins | 538 c398 (Link to this contribution) It is one thing for the Minister to argue that what he is doing is better than what he undertook to ...
Ed Davey | 538 c399 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend. We do need to give the self-regulatory regime time to work, and I p...
Adrian Bailey | 538 c399-400 (Link to this contribution) A lot of points have been raised in the debate, and I will try to respond to them in a very brief ti...
Ed Davey | 538 c397-8 (Link to this contribution) No. Secondly, when one examines where the relationships between pubcos and licensees have gone wron...
Brian Binley | 538 c397 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister give way now?
Andrew Stephenson | 538 c367 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the Backbench Business Committee on granting this debate and the hon. Member for West...
Greg Mulholland | 538 c372 (Link to this contribution) Apart from concerns about the misrepresentation of PICAS, does the hon. Lady share licensees' concer...
Fiona O'Donnell | 538 c362-3 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) on securing today's deba...
Adrian Bailey | 538 c352-3 (Link to this contribution) I need to make a little progress, as I am conscious that many people want to speak. If I have time, ...
John Pugh | 538 c382 (Link to this contribution) I think that self-regulation might work sometimes. What we are debating is what will happen if it do...
Greg Mulholland | 538 c361-2 (Link to this contribution) Sadly, I am afraid that the explanation appears to be clear from the freedom of information request ...
Karen Bradley | 538 c357 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend clarify this point? Is it correct that large pub companies borrowed against futu...
Ed Davey | 538 c396-7 (Link to this contribution) No, I want to make some progress. [Hon. Members: ““Oh!””] I will give way to the hon. Gentleman in a...
Martin Horwood | 538 c398-9 (Link to this contribution) I believe that Members can welcome the positive steps that the Minister has announced but still beli...
Brian Binley | 538 c398 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister for giving way. I remind him that I asked the Secretary of State ...
Subjects
Codes of practice Alcoholic drinks Companies Competition Public houses Tenants Tied housing
Link
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