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Estimates day on Monday, 27 February 2012, in the House of Commons, led by Andrew Miller. The answering member was James Brokenshire.

Forensic Science Service

Supplementary estimates 2012-13. Fourth estimates day (part two). Motion that, for the year ending with 31 March 2012, for expenditure by the Home Office- (1) further resources, not exceeding £66,029,000, be authorised for use for current purposes as set out in HC 1755, (2) further resources, not exceeding £4,421,000, be authorised for use for capital purposes as so set out, and (3) a further sum, not exceeding £173,266,000, be granted to Her Majesty to be issued by the Treasury out of the Consolidated Fund and applied for expenditure on the use of resources authorised by Parliament. Question deferred until 28 February. Resolved.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
541 c81-124 
Session
2010-12
Department
Home Office
Procedure
Supply estimates
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Deposited Paper DEP2012-0410
Monday, 5 March 2012
Deposited papers
House of Commons
Estimates
Tuesday, 21 February 2012
Parliamentary proceedings
House of Commons
Show all related items (6)
Home Office
Tuesday, 28 February 2012
Formal proceedings
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Andy Slaughter | 541 c82 (Link to this contribution) Before venturing any further, I should say that I have an indirect family interest in the matter. M...
Speaker | 541 c82 (Link to this contribution) Order. Before the hon. Gentleman continues, I remind all Members that when making an intervention or...
Show all contributions (107)
Graham Stringer | 541 c82 (Link to this contribution) Before my hon. Friend moves on, does he agree that one of the appalling things about the Government'...
Andrew Miller | 541 c82 (Link to this contribution) I not only agree with my hon. Friend, who plays a sterling role in the Committee, but think that the...
Andrew Miller | 541 c82 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a fair point, and I will demonstrate later that when we saw the next set of FSS...
Rehman Chishti | 541 c82 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that in 2003 the then Minister said:"““The investment required could...
Andrew Miller | 541 c81-2 (Link to this contribution) I will go through the Committee's case—hopefully reasonably forensically—but one of the concerns we ...
Julian Huppert | 541 c102 (Link to this contribution) I will give way once more, but then I must make some progress.
John Howell | 541 c92 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for giving way again—he is being incredibly generous—but may I take him back ...
Speaker | 541 c95 (Link to this contribution) Order. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we will have no more Dr Whos or anything else. We will s...
Anna Soubry | 541 c94-5 (Link to this contribution) This should not be a competition for anecdotal evidence but, in my experience, there is growing conc...
Michael Ellis | 541 c99 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman not think that those excellent scientists will have more places in the priva...
Alan Campbell | 541 c96-9 (Link to this contribution) Let me first place on the record my thanks to the Science and Technology Committee for its report an...
Andy Slaughter | 541 c120 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister tell the House what he believes the total cost of the closure of the Forensic Scie...
James Brokenshire | 541 c119-20 (Link to this contribution) The police have been looking carefully at their forensics spend and how to ensure that it is used ef...
Alan Campbell | 541 c119 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister not accept that since that debate—of which we both have memories, and certainly no...
James Brokenshire | 541 c119 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that confirmation. I hear some of the points that have been...
Andrew Miller | 541 c119 (Link to this contribution) When the decision was made in December 2010, the FSS had about 60% of the market. There is no disput...
James Brokenshire | 541 c119 (Link to this contribution) I will update the House on the situation relating to transition, but when the decision was made in D...
Michael Ellis | 541 c119 (Link to this contribution) Is it the Minister's understanding that anywhere between 35% and 50% of forensics is now outside the...
James Brokenshire | 541 c117-8 (Link to this contribution) Learned Members of the House have made various contributions on the relevance and significance of fo...
Michael Ellis | 541 c117 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that forensic science is important because it can exonerate the innocent a...
James Brokenshire | 541 c117 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the opportunity to wind up this debate and I welcome the introduction to it by the Chair o...
Andrew Miller | 541 c123 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister add to his list of commitments for that period the making of a clear statement on ...
James Brokenshire | 541 c122 (Link to this contribution) I can say that one of the fundamental parts of the process, and one of the things on which I was abs...
James Brokenshire | 541 c123 (Link to this contribution) I gave evidence before Christmas in conjunction with the forensic science regulator and the chief sc...
Andrew Miller | 541 c121 (Link to this contribution) What concerns me about what the Minister says is that some of these costs are going to be borne by t...
James Brokenshire | 541 c120-1 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I do, for this reason. We considered the options carefully, and determined that allowing the FS...
Guy Opperman | 541 c122 (Link to this contribution) Can my hon. Friend assure us that there is no fundamental difference between the situation facing th...
James Brokenshire | 541 c121-2 (Link to this contribution) I do not accept the analysis relating to burgeoning costs. If the hon. Gentleman talked to ACPO abou...
Andy Slaughter | 541 c120 (Link to this contribution) If that is right and the cost is £100 million, while I acknowledge that the Minister might not accep...
James Brokenshire | 541 c120 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be aware of the provisions made in the estimates. As we reported...
Julian Huppert | 541 c102-3 (Link to this contribution) I think the key point is that chief scientific advisers should be consulted, as a matter of routine,...
Diana Johnson | 541 c102 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman was as surprised as I was when I read the evidence from the chie...
Diana Johnson | 541 c102 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Andy Slaughter | 541 c104-5 (Link to this contribution) May I begin by referring to the declaration of interests that I made earlier in this debate? I also ...
Julian Huppert | 541 c103-4 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Although I have tried to follow what his Select Com...
Andrew Miller | 541 c103 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will be interested to know that the final point we made was that"““we would certa...
Julian Huppert | 541 c102 (Link to this contribution) I will not make the standard jokes about military intelligence that would normally arise at this poi...
Bob Stewart | 541 c102 (Link to this contribution) Surely it is up to the chief scientific adviser to put his spoke in at an early stage, rather than w...
Julian Huppert | 541 c100-2 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak in this important debate. I have been approach...
Andy Slaughter | 541 c107-8 (Link to this contribution) I wholly agree, and I ask the Minister, even if he is going to rely on the argument about money, to ...
Bob Stewart | 541 c107 (Link to this contribution) I think we might also be losing the ability to have seriously world-beating research and development...
Andrew Miller | 541 c109 (Link to this contribution) I did not catch all the names that the hon. Gentleman mentioned, but the ones I did catch were all c...
Guy Opperman | 541 c108-9 (Link to this contribution) Let me start by making a declaration that for the best part of 21 years I was a criminal barrister. ...
Diana Johnson | 541 c110-7 (Link to this contribution) Like all other hon. Members who have spoken in the debate, I want to congratulate the Chair of the S...
Guy Opperman | 541 c109-10 (Link to this contribution) I accept that accreditation is important, and I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say...
Andy Slaughter | 541 c105-6 (Link to this contribution) I most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making his point clearly and forcefully, and I hope that t...
Bob Stewart | 541 c105 (Link to this contribution) Surely the most important thing is the kind of service we will get. If the FSS is at a certain level...
Andy Slaughter | 541 c106-7 (Link to this contribution) I can only agree. The Government say that police labs can pick up the slack, but even if the police...
Andrew Miller | 541 c106 (Link to this contribution) On my hon. Friend's point about the skills base, Professor Sir Alec Jeffreys said in his evidence to...
James Brokenshire | 541 c123-4 (Link to this contribution) I have two minutes left and I want to address a key point about fragmentation, which both the hon. L...
Michael Ellis | 541 c88-9 (Link to this contribution) I do agree with that. In Germany and the United States, both of which are first-world countries and...
Michael Ellis | 541 c93-4 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman does not think that £24 million is a lot to spend, but it is a £24 million loss w...
John Howell | 541 c95-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for those comments, Mr Deputy Speaker. I intended to head in that direction anyway. I...
Alan Campbell | 541 c99-100 (Link to this contribution) They may do. It is entirely their choice if they want to do that, but let me ask the hon. Gentleman ...
John Howell | 541 c96 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point. From the point of view of my constituency, nobody is sugg...
Andrew Miller | 541 c96 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would also recognise that one of the crucial points about the Step...
Andrew Miller | 541 c81 (Link to this contribution) On behalf of the Science and Technology Committee, it is my pleasure to open the first debate we hav...
Baroness Brown of Silvertown | 541 c81 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that that is very worrying and could lead to future miscarriages of justic...
Graham Stringer | 541 c84-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who is laying out the ambiguities in the finances, but on the two d...
Michael Ellis | 541 c90-1 (Link to this contribution) Forgive me. The Forensic Science Regulator has said that laboratories, prosecuting authorities, prof...
Andrew Miller | 541 c91 (Link to this contribution) I totally agree with the hon. Gentleman on that point, but does he agree with me, and with Andrew Re...
Michael Ellis | 541 c91 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not think I do agree with that. Of course I accept that a laboratory must be accredited, bu...
Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford | 541 c89 (Link to this contribution) To support my hon. Friend's point, I cite Cellmark Forensic Services, which is based in Abingdon in ...
Julian Huppert | 541 c89 (Link to this contribution) There is no dissent across the Chamber on the fact that the private sector has a role and performs i...
Michael Ellis | 541 c89 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend. The hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) spoke ...
Graham Stringer | 541 c89 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman referred to what I said earlier, and I should like to clarify two points. First, ...
Michael Ellis | 541 c89 (Link to this contribution) That sounds like a perfectly sensible idea.
Andrew Miller | 541 c90 (Link to this contribution) Not the financial service regulator, the Forensic Science Regulator.
Michael Ellis | 541 c89-90 (Link to this contribution) I do not accept that at all, but I am very pleased that the hon. Gentleman has had a chance to give ...
Anna Soubry | 541 c94 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman was kind in his opening comments, and I respond to him in equally warm terms, but...
Karl Turner | 541 c94 (Link to this contribution) Of course I do—it would be marvellous if money was not lost—but there are two sides to the argument,...
Michael Ellis | 541 c91-2 (Link to this contribution) I agree absolutely with my hon. Friend—I have made that point already. The reality is that the Direc...
Anna Soubry | 541 c91 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree—perhaps this has not been understood—that before a so-called expert can gi...
Michael Ellis | 541 c91 (Link to this contribution) There is a very big difference there. Hon. Members will do well to recall that under the McFarland r...
Andrew Miller | 541 c91 (Link to this contribution) I accept the hon. Gentleman's last point—that is critical in the interests of justice. The Science a...
Karl Turner | 541 c93 (Link to this contribution) I am obliged to my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller) not only for...
Michael Ellis | 541 c92-3 (Link to this contribution) I agree. When the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) was Hom...
Michael Ellis | 541 c95 (Link to this contribution) Dr Who was born and brought up in my constituency.
John Howell | 541 c95 (Link to this contribution) I fear that this is turning into a debate about who has got what television show—
John Howell | 541 c95 (Link to this contribution) I feel trumped in the television stakes, as one would expect.
Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford | 541 c95 (Link to this contribution) I should point out that I am also the Member of Parliament for Inspector Morse and Lewis.
John Howell | 541 c95 (Link to this contribution) I start by paying tribute to the work of forensic scientists, who do a wonderful job, whether on nat...
Karl Turner | 541 c94 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. My hon. Friend makes a valid point. It is worth noting that we are to hold elections for...
Nicholas Dakin | 541 c94 (Link to this contribution) I draw my hon. Friend's attention to the concerns of a constituent of mine about the changes in the ...
Karl Turner | 541 c95 (Link to this contribution) I do not accept that. Absolutely not. It is true that I have heard grumblings about aspects of exper...
Andrew Miller | 541 c84 (Link to this contribution) I agree. The important point is to get things right, and I hope to demonstrate that that is what the...
Julian Huppert | 541 c84 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is entirely possible that the previous Government got things w...
Andrew Miller | 541 c83 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is clearly reading from a Government-prepared brief, but he is right. Let me be c...
Rehman Chishti | 541 c83 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Andrew Miller | 541 c83 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right, and I shall cover that issue in a moment, because the whole point of th...
Rehman Chishti | 541 c83 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that the Science and Technology Committee's seventh report of Sessio...
Andrew Miller | 541 c85 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend's first observation takes us right back to the first intervention that I took, on the...
Michael Ellis | 541 c88 (Link to this contribution) It was Sir Robert Peel who set up the Laboratory of the Government Chemist in 1842 to analyse alcoho...
Michael Ellis | 541 c87-8 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller). To continu...
Andy Slaughter | 541 c88 (Link to this contribution) The overwhelming client of the Forensic Science Service is the police in England and Wales, although...
Michael Ellis | 541 c88 (Link to this contribution) The Government have supplied £20 million to maintain operational continuity and some £8.7 million to...
Andrew Miller | 541 c88 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will find that neither I nor any other member of the Select Committee from either...
Julian Huppert | 541 c85 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are already a number of concerns about this? For example, a s...
Andrew Miller | 541 c85-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point. I hope that every senior official of the Home Office is requ...
Graham Stringer | 541 c87 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has made an extremely powerful speech on behalf of the Select Committee. He mentioned...
Andrew Miller | 541 c87 (Link to this contribution) I repeat what was going to be my final point. It is imperative that the strategy be based on the del...
John Howell | 541 c88 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree with my constituents who work as forensic scientists for LGC that since 19...
Karl Turner | 541 c94 (Link to this contribution) Of course the police conduct all sorts of inquiries and investigations—the hon. Lady makes a reasona...
Andrew Miller | 541 c83-4 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not. The Committee's report is not a partisan attack on the Government; it represents a ...
Subjects
Finance Evidence Forensic science Expenditure Private sector Police Research Forensic Science Service Public private partnerships
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