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Backbench debate and e-petition debate on Thursday, 1 March 2012, in the House of Commons, led by John McDonnell. The answering member was Steve Webb.

CPI/RPI Pensions Uprating

Unallotted backbench debate (part one). Motion that this House notes that the e-petition entitled Public and Private Pension Increases—change from RPI to CPI attracted over 100,000 signatures very quickly, revealing a high level of concern about the Government’s decision to change the indexation for occupational pensions from the Retail Prices Index to the Consumer Price Index, which will mean that many people, both those retired and those yet to retire, will receive less in their pension payments than they were led to expect. Negatived on division (33 to 232).

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
541 c452-90 
Session
2010-12
Department
Department for Work and Pensions
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Proceeding contributions
John McDonnell | 541 c453-4 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased that the National Pensioners Convention supports the quadruple lock, because that is wh...
Harriett Baldwin | 541 c454 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving us the range of examples. Is it his understanding that it is n...
Show all contributions (102)
John McDonnell | 541 c454 (Link to this contribution) I scoured the Welfare Reform Bill Committee discussions on that point, and as I understand it, those...
John McDonnell | 541 c452 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move,"That this House notes that the e-petition entitled Public and Private Pension Increas...
Andrea Leadsom | 541 c452-3 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman feels that the proposition is completely unreasonable, will he explain why the...
John McDonnell | 541 c453 (Link to this contribution) That is also a move that I would not have supported, so I am being consistent in my opposition. I am...
Caroline Lucas | 541 c453 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that, in the House last week, the Minister of State, Depart...
Derek Twigg | 541 c457 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate and tabling the motion. My Halton constituency...
John McDonnell | 541 c457 (Link to this contribution) Those most in need and those who saved the most will be the mostly greatly affected. My hon. Friend'...
Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 541 c457 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that one concern about the shift, which will reduce people's pensions, is ...
John McDonnell | 541 c457 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I will deal with that point now. The Government's decision to move from RPI to CPI was taken at...
Brandon Lewis | 541 c457-8 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is generous with his time. He refers to people not paying into pension schemes, b...
John McDonnell | 541 c458 (Link to this contribution) I support auto-enrolment, which is a good thing. What these pensions do is enable people to have an ...
Jeremy Corbyn | 541 c456 (Link to this contribution) I commend my hon. Friend for securing this motion. He makes the point that housing is excluded from ...
John McDonnell | 541 c456-7 (Link to this contribution) That is why—[Interruption.] As the Minister says from a sedentary position, it is mortgage costs, no...
Andrew Murrison | 541 c454-5 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. I believe that the legal position is that...
John McDonnell | 541 c455-6 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right. Jim did base his future plans with his wife on what he was told was a g...
Harriett Baldwin | 541 c459 (Link to this contribution) Thank you for allowing me to speak in this important debate, Madam Deputy Speaker. I congratulate th...
Jeremy Corbyn | 541 c459 (Link to this contribution) I think the hon. Lady is in danger of misreading history. The Social Security Act 1986 promoted the ...
Harriett Baldwin | 541 c459-60 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has clearly forgotten the imposition of a tax on private pension schemes in that ...
Andrea Leadsom | 541 c460 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that, many years ago, public sector salaries were lower and therefore pens...
Harriett Baldwin | 541 c460-1 (Link to this contribution) Personally, I aspire to a future in which all Britain's pensioners can rely on a secure retirement i...
Glyn Davies | 541 c458 (Link to this contribution) The purpose of the change that the Government have made is to make public pensions more sustainable....
John McDonnell | 541 c458 (Link to this contribution) I can tell the hon. Gentleman that if I form the next Government, it will be. I ask him to stick wit...
Andrea Leadsom | 541 c458 (Link to this contribution) I feel the need to challenge the hon. Gentleman's suggestion that those who created the financial cr...
John McDonnell | 541 c458-9 (Link to this contribution) I will answer the hon. Lady's question in a moment, but let me first respond to the point made by th...
Speaker | 541 c459 (Link to this contribution) Order. I must inform the House that Mr Speaker has not selected the amendment.
David Crausby | 541 c464 (Link to this contribution) I completely accept that. I do not recall any of the political parties demanding that the Government...
Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 541 c464 (Link to this contribution) I would have liked the Labour Government to have restored the link in 1997. I do not really understa...
David Crausby | 541 c464 (Link to this contribution) The previous Labour Government did decide to restore the link and were committed to doing so. The cu...
Stephen Lloyd | 541 c465 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the fact that the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) has secured this d...
Speaker | 541 c465 (Link to this contribution) Order. I was waiting for Members to stand. I call Stephen Lloyd.
David Crausby | 541 c465 (Link to this contribution) I think that members of the public have been mis-sold pension schemes over a generation by a series ...
John McDonnell | 541 c464-5 (Link to this contribution) In the representations that I have received, even when there is a pension fund, as with the teachers...
John McDonnell | 541 c466 (Link to this contribution) During those 13 years, almost every year I tabled an amendment to the Budget to restore the link wit...
Stephen Lloyd | 541 c466 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's reminder that percentages can be a wee bit obscure and it is bette...
Grahame Morris | 541 c465 (Link to this contribution) In the interests of pursuing the point about clarity and greater understanding in this talk about pe...
Harriett Baldwin | 541 c461 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that either the CPI or the RPI basket accurately represents inflation as experienced ...
John Leech | 541 c461 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Lady agree that people might have more confidence in the Government's decision to move...
Harriett Baldwin | 541 c461-2 (Link to this contribution) I certainly accept the point that CPI implies that people are active shoppers. Most of the pensioner...
Grahame Morris | 541 c461 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Lady therefore support the GMB proposal for a bespoke pensions index that more truly r...
Grahame Morris | 541 c463 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend acknowledge that if we attempt to balance the books on the backs of future pensi...
David Crausby | 541 c462-3 (Link to this contribution) Despite all the detailed arguments about geometric or arithmetical calculations, the reality is that...
Steve Webb | 541 c463 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about pension promises being kept. Will he confirm that ...
David Crausby | 541 c463 (Link to this contribution) I have always believed that this is principally a matter of trust between employees and employers, b...
Richard Graham | 541 c464 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman and others of his colleagues were so concerned about the decision made by the ...
David Crausby | 541 c463-4 (Link to this contribution) I accept that that is the situation on their pension fund, as long as those individuals can trust th...
Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 541 c469-70 (Link to this contribution) Of course, firefighters are a relatively well-paid group compared with some of the other groups we a...
John McDonnell | 541 c469 (Link to this contribution) There have been other surveys since then. The Fire Brigades Union surveyed its members and the resul...
Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 541 c470 (Link to this contribution) I agree with what my hon. Friend says about tax avoidance and evasion. We should be focusing on that...
Grahame Morris | 541 c470 (Link to this contribution) As usual, my hon. Friend is making some excellent and pertinent points, but will she comment on the ...
Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 541 c467 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to speak in this debate. I listened carefully to what the hon. Member for Eastbourn...
Stephen Lloyd | 541 c466-7 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving me that information. I was not aware of it, but it does not su...
Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 541 c468-9 (Link to this contribution) I fully agree with the hon. Gentleman about the wider economic impacts the changes are likely to hav...
Alasdair McDonnell | 541 c467-8 (Link to this contribution) May I endorse the hon. Lady's approach to this issue regarding a number of the points she is making?...
John McDonnell | 541 c471 (Link to this contribution) We need to be clear about what the then Chancellor introduced. He confirmed the measure of CPI for m...
Richard Graham | 541 c470-1 (Link to this contribution) I join others in congratulating the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) on securin...
Gregg McClymont | 541 c483 (Link to this contribution) Alas, the hon. Gentleman must wait for the next Labour party manifesto to satisfy his curiosity. Cl...
Richard Graham | 541 c483 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I do apologise. I was following the example of the shadow Chancello...
Speaker | 541 c483 (Link to this contribution) Order. If the hon. Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) wants to intervene, he should stand up. It...
Gregg McClymont | 541 c483 (Link to this contribution) The Labour party's position is that, if the Government had introduced the switch to CPI as a tempora...
Gregg McClymont | 541 c484 (Link to this contribution) I think that is what the hon. Gentleman suggested, but it is far more complicated. There are signifi...
Gregg McClymont | 541 c483-4 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady's desire to write the Labour party manifesto three years before a likely general elect...
Harriett Baldwin | 541 c483 (Link to this contribution) On the hon. Gentleman's last point, can I therefore clarify that it is a 2015 Labour manifesto pledg...
Harriett Baldwin | 541 c482 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman confirm my understanding that it is not the Opposition's current policy to r...
Steve Webb | 541 c484-5 (Link to this contribution) I join hon. Members in congratulating the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) and ...
Steve Webb | 541 c486-9 (Link to this contribution) No. What I am saying is that the law of the land requires the Secretary of State to make an assessme...
David Crausby | 541 c486 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister saying that at any point in the future he can decide what the measure of inflation i...
Speaker | 541 c490 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman knows that he is supposed to be speaking for only a few minutes, but he ha...
John McDonnell | 541 c490 (Link to this contribution) This is an important debate, but I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker. The judges made their view very...
Steve Webb | 541 c486 (Link to this contribution) Let me deal with the issue of backdating, as the hon. Gentleman has used that term. People's pension...
Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 541 c477 (Link to this contribution) On my hon. Friend's point about the effect on individuals, he will be aware that one of the other ch...
Grahame Morris | 541 c476-7 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely; that is a very good point well made. I am certainly aware, from visits to Germany and el...
Grahame Morris | 541 c475-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker. Thank you very much, indeed. I congratulate my hon. Friend the...
Speaker | 541 c475 (Link to this contribution) Order. I do have to remind hon. Members that, having indicated that they want to speak, they have to...
Grahame Morris | 541 c477 (Link to this contribution) I was alluding to the FBU's response to the judgment. I apologise if I have misled the Minister in t...
Grahame Morris | 541 c477 (Link to this contribution) That is an excellent point. It is a double whammy. Research that I have seen shows that between 198...
Steve Webb | 541 c477 (Link to this contribution) I would not usually interrupt the hon. Gentleman but, to set the record straight, he is grossly misr...
Hywel Williams | 541 c480 (Link to this contribution) How typical does the hon. Gentleman think that head teacher is of pensioners in my constituency, in ...
Grahame Morris | 541 c477-8 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for my hon. Friend's intervention, as I did not have the judgment to hand. I am sure t...
John McDonnell | 541 c477 (Link to this contribution) In order that nobody is misleading the House whatsoever, let me quote from the judgment. Judge Elias...
Grahame Morris | 541 c478-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that point of clarification. By my arithmetic, that makes two judges out of three,...
Guto Bebb | 541 c480-2 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. Of course the individual in question is not typical, but I am...
Gregg McClymont | 541 c482 (Link to this contribution) The debate has been interesting so far, with the temperature raised a little at the end by the hon. ...
Richard Graham | 541 c475 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and gallant Friend is absolutely right, and that is precisely what the new NEST pension is d...
Bob Stewart | 541 c474 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is very kind. For me the most important thing that we can do for the future is to loo...
Richard Graham | 541 c474 (Link to this contribution) Of course I will give way to my distinguished and gallant hon. Friend.
Richard Graham | 541 c472 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. He is correct, as I had just pointed out, ...
Grahame Morris | 541 c472 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman refers to the Hutton report and predictions about the call on the public purse, b...
Richard Graham | 541 c473-4 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention and for confirming his position on the prev...
Richard Graham | 541 c472-3 (Link to this contribution) To be honest, I have no insights on the talks between the previous Labour Government and the unions ...
John McDonnell | 541 c473 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman must not have heard me. I was not silent on that issue; in an intervention I said...
John McDonnell | 541 c489-90 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all who have contributed to the debate. I think that it has been incredibly constru...
David Crausby | 541 c486 (Link to this contribution) Regardless of the legal judgment, does the Minister not accept that any reduction in pension—clearly...
Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 541 c476 (Link to this contribution) I am listening to my hon. Friend with great interest. Does he agree that the British economy and, pa...
Guto Bebb | 541 c479-80 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. When people say that HSBC's £14 billion profit is indefensible, I make the case that for som...
John McDonnell | 541 c478 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt my hon. Friend again, but as hon. Members said from a sedentary position, ““...
David TC Davies | 541 c479 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted that my hon. Friend has given way. I congratulate him on what he is saying. Does he s...
Guto Bebb | 541 c479 (Link to this contribution) I will be brief. It is a pleasure to speak in this debate and to follow the hon. Member for Easingto...
Subjects
Civil service Judgements Local government NHS Police Workplace pensions Public sector Teachers Uprating Retail prices index Consumer prices index
Link
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