Opposition day on Wednesday, 20 June 2012, in the House of Commons, led by Rachel Reeves. The answering member was Lord Maude of Horsham.

Regional Pay

Second opposition day debate (part two). Main question negatived on division (226 to 286). Amendment agreed to on division (286 to 232). Main question, as amended, agreed to.

Secondary information

Type: Parliamentary proceeding
Reference: 546 cc932-987
Session: 2012-13
Department: Treasury
Chamber / Committee: House of Commons chamber
Proceeding contributions: Baroness Primarolo | 546 c937 (Link to this contribution)
I advise the House that Mr Speaker has selected the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister.<...; Rachel Reeves | 546 c937 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move,
That this House notes that the national pay review bodies have been an effec...; Lord Brennan of Canton | 546 c937 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend may not be aware of this, but the Federation of Small Businesses in Wales has also...; Rachel Reeves | 546 c938 (Link to this contribution)
I am not surprised at all, because in reality, if regional pay were introduced and pay were cut i...; John Robertson | 546 c938 (Link to this contribution)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the confusion being caused by the regional pay strategy, added to ...; Rachel Reeves | 546 c938 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. As a result of that confusion, many people who are ...; Geraint Davies | 546 c938 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend may be interested to know that inward investors to whom I have spoken are concerne...; Rachel Reeves | 546 c938 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend speaks powerfully on behalf of his constituents in Swansea. In my area, many peopl...; Brian H Donohoe | 546 c939 (Link to this contribution)
When there is regional bargaining, in which I was once involved in a trade union, the complexitie...; Rachel Reeves | 546 c939 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I will come on to deal with some of the evidence that bac...; Ben Bradshaw | 546 c939 (Link to this contribution)
This is not just a cause for concern in Scotland, Wales and the northern regions of England. Ther...; Rachel Reeves | 546 c939 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my right hon. Friend for that intervention. Indeed, a 1% pay reduction for public sector ...; Chris Ruane | 546 c939 (Link to this contribution)
Regional pay was mentioned this morning in the Welsh Grand Committee, when I quizzed the Secretar...; Rachel Reeves | 546 cc939-940 (Link to this contribution)
The problem is that the Government are being a bit two-faced, with one person saying one thing an...; Elizabeth Truss | 546 c940 (Link to this contribution)
In the 1990s, Sweden moved from national pay scales to individual contracts. That was supported b...; Rachel Reeves | 546 c940 (Link to this contribution)
I am sure that the 11,500 public sector workers in the hon. Lady’s constituency will know that sh...; Mike Freer | 546 c940 (Link to this contribution)
If the Opposition are so vehemently opposed to regional pay, will the hon. Lady be instructing La...; Rachel Reeves | 546 c940 (Link to this contribution)
I will come to the regional flexibility that is already in the system in inner and outer London f...; Margot James | 546 c940 (Link to this contribution)
On that subject, the hon. Lady may be aware that the difference between private and public sector...; Rachel Reeves | 546 c941 (Link to this contribution)
I am sure that the 10,300 public sector workers in Stourbridge will be pleased to hear that the h...; Aidan Burley | 546 c941 (Link to this contribution)
I am glad that the hon. Lady read my quotation in The Daily Telegraph this morning. As she has re...; Rachel Reeves | 546 c941 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman should speak to the 9,500 public sector workers in his constituency. That numb...; Jim Sheridan | 546 c941 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend has highlighted the enthusiasm of the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Andr...; Rachel Reeves | 546 c941 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my hon. Friend for mentioning that. That is how the Government will get the economy movin...; Andrea Leadsom | 546 c941 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Rachel Reeves | 546 c942 (Link to this contribution)
It will be interesting to hear what the hon. Lady has to say to the 10,800 public sector workers ...; Andrea Leadsom | 546 c942 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the hon. Lady. I was going to say that my 10,500 public sector workers will no d...; Rachel Reeves | 546 c942 (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps those 10,500 public sector workers can give their verdict at the ballot box. Yes, we do n...; Lord Wilson of Sedgefield | 546 c942 (Link to this contribution)
Can we put to bed the idea that public sector jobs crowd out private sector jobs? Between 2003 an...; Rachel Reeves | 546 c942 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend makes a very important point.; Ian Mearns | 546 c942 (Link to this contribution)
Given the perverse logic that Government Members put forward, will my hon. Friend reflect on the ...; Rachel Reeves | 546 cc942-3 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my hon. Friend for that point and look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say in...; Alison McGovern | 546 c943 (Link to this contribution)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the people who are being hit by the speculation about regional pay...; Rachel Reeves | 546 c943 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend speaks powerfully on behalf of her constituents in the Wirral, and I know they wil...; Chris Williamson | 546 c943 (Link to this contribution)
Would my hon. Friend care to comment on the fact that yet again the Chief Secretary to the Treasu...; Lord Maude of Horsham | 546 c944 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from “House” to the end of the Question and add:
“...; Rachel Reeves | 546 cc943-4 (Link to this contribution)
Given that the policies have such big implications for the public purse, especially as anticipate...; Huw Irranca-Davies | 546 c944 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister give way?; Lord Maude of Horsham | 546 c944 (Link to this contribution)
I shall get started, but I will give way to the hon. Gentleman in due course.
Let me begin ...; Chris Williamson | 546 c945 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister give way?; Lord Maude of Horsham | 546 c945 (Link to this contribution)
I am going to make a little progress, but I will give way in due course.
Those pay remits a...; Huw Irranca-Davies | 546 c945 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Lord Maude of Horsham | 546 c945 (Link to this contribution)
I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, who has been persistent.; Huw Irranca-Davies | 546 c945 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister speculate on why the Chief Secretary to the Treasury thinks the sun shines out ...; Lord Maude of Horsham | 546 c945 (Link to this contribution)
That was about as laboured a joke as I have heard in this place, but we will let the hon. Gentlem...; Brian H Donohoe | 546 c945 (Link to this contribution)
I do not know whether the Minister has ever been involved in wage negotiations, but if he looks a...; Lord Maude of Horsham | 546 c945 (Link to this contribution)
They may well do national negotiations. If the hon. Gentleman had listened, he would have heard m...; Bill Esterson | 546 c945 (Link to this contribution)
It has occurred to me that Conservative Members were against the national minimum wage when it wa...; Lord Maude of Horsham | 546 c945 (Link to this contribution)
We have made it clear that we support the national minimum wage. That has been the case for a lon...; Richard Burden | 546 c946 (Link to this contribution)
I am trying really hard to understand what the Minister is saying. Will he please tell me whether...; Lord Maude of Horsham | 546 c946 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman has failed to listen either to what the previous Prime Minister and Chancellor...; Lord Wilson of Sedgefield | 546 c946 (Link to this contribution)
I think the Minister has been a bit selective in quoting Treasury Ministers in the previous Gover...; Lord Maude of Horsham | 546 c946 (Link to this contribution)
Given that the hon. Gentleman has not given me the chance to talk about our plans and approach, p...; Fiona O'Donnell | 546 c946 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister give way?; Lord Maude of Horsham | 546 cc946-7 (Link to this contribution)
I will not give way, if the hon. Lady will forgive me, because I need to make some progress and B...; Chris Williamson | 546 c947 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Lord Maude of Horsham | 546 cc947-8 (Link to this contribution)
I am going to make progress now.
That policy was introduced at a time when those who are no...; Baroness Primarolo | 546 c948 (Link to this contribution)
Order. I am sorry, Minister. It is not necessary for Members on either side of the House, especia...; Lord Maude of Horsham | 546 cc948-9 (Link to this contribution)
We would have made better progress if, every time anyone stood up, the hon. Member for Leeds West...; Rachel Reeves | 546 c949 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister give way?; Lord Maude of Horsham | 546 c949 (Link to this contribution)
Only if the hon. Lady promises to read out the number of public sector workers in my constituency...; Rachel Reeves | 546 c949 (Link to this contribution)
I do not think that the Minister wants to cut their pay. Does he think that teachers in Horsham s...; Lord Maude of Horsham | 546 c949 (Link to this contribution)
Under the hon. Lady’s own Government’s policy of introducing academies, it will increasingly be a...; Rachel Reeves | 546 c949 (Link to this contribution)
The last Labour Government did not give less money to schools in Leeds than they did to schools i...; Lord Maude of Horsham | 546 c949 (Link to this contribution)
Under the last Government, a lot of schools in a lot of places found they were getting a lot less...; 546 c949 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Baroness Primarolo | 546 cc949-950 (Link to this contribution)
Order. A large number of Members wish to participate in the debate, so it is necessary to change ...; Grahame Morris | 546 c950 (Link to this contribution)
I was rather perplexed by the Minister’s response. My impression is that if it walks like a duck,...; David Mowat | 546 c950 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way, as I have been trying to intervene for a while. He mak...; Grahame Morris | 546 cc950-1 (Link to this contribution)
I shall come to that point. Under the last Government, the GVA differential was considerably redu...; Ian Mearns | 546 c951 (Link to this contribution)
All of us in north-east England are calling for an economic stimulus to create demand and grow th...; Grahame Morris | 546 cc951-2 (Link to this contribution)
I agree with my hon. Friend’s analysis.
The other likely negative impact of the Government’...; Baroness Primarolo | 546 c952 (Link to this contribution)
Order. The hon. Gentleman’s time is up.
5.24 pm; Aidan Burley | 546 c952 (Link to this contribution)
First, I want to say how grateful I am to Her Majesty’s Opposition for choosing this topic for de...; Richard Burden | 546 c952 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman and I represent west midlands constituencies. Will he answer this simple quest...; Aidan Burley | 546 cc952-3 (Link to this contribution)
I want the private sector in the west midlands to flourish. One of the most astonishing facts I h...; Lord Wilson of Sedgefield | 546 c953 (Link to this contribution)
What advice would the hon. Gentleman give to his party colleague, the hon. Member for Hexham (Guy...; Aidan Burley | 546 cc953-4 (Link to this contribution)
I am sure we will hear from my hon. Friend in due course, and I will let him make his own argumen...; Baroness Primarolo | 546 c954 (Link to this contribution)
Order. I call Russell Brown.
5.32 pm; Eilidh Whiteford | 546 c955 (Link to this contribution)
I would have liked to have been more supportive of what the hon. Gentleman is saying this afterno...; Russell Brown | 546 cc954-5 (Link to this contribution)
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I regret that once again in this House I have to make mention of...; Russell Brown | 546 cc955-6 (Link to this contribution)
I mentioned that I was up through the night when the national minimum wage was introduced, and I ...; John Pugh | 546 c956 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) for that introduction; I am not used...; Kelvin Hopkins | 546 c956 (Link to this contribution)
It is refreshing to hear some common sense from the Liberal Democrats. The hon. Gentleman might b...; Jacob Rees-Mogg | 546 c956 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman said that no one would dispute his points, but I will. If more private sector ...; John Pugh | 546 c956 (Link to this contribution)
That is certainly true, and a lot of UK national firms—building societies, banks and the like—do ...; John Pugh | 546 cc956-7 (Link to this contribution)
That is my next point, because the only good reason for taking forward the approach would be if i...; Aidan Burley | 546 c957 (Link to this contribution)
We already pay every public sector worker outside London less because of the long-established pri...; John Pugh | 546 c957 (Link to this contribution)
The special housing problems connected with London have been recognised for about 30 years. No on...; Bill Esterson | 546 cc957-8 (Link to this contribution)
Most business people I know want to pay well because they know that if they look after their staf...; Ian Swales | 546 c958 (Link to this contribution)
Labour-led Redcar and Cleveland was one of the councils that failed to implement the April 2011 p...; Bill Esterson | 546 cc958-9 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman represents a Government who have cut the funds to councils in the north of Eng...; Guy Opperman | 546 cc959-960 (Link to this contribution)
My entire career has been spent being part of the national health service. My grandmother was an ...; Andrew Percy | 546 c960 (Link to this contribution)
I agree entirely with everything my hon. Friend has said so far. The other reason we do not suppo...; Guy Opperman | 546 c960 (Link to this contribution)
I also believe that regional pay is divisive and manifestly unfair. Members who read The Daily Te...; David Mowat | 546 c960 (Link to this contribution)
I agree with the thrust of my hon. Friend’s remarks. He cited the phrase “economically destructiv...; Guy Opperman | 546 c961 (Link to this contribution)
I understand what my hon. Friend says and, to a degree, endorse it, but I do not accept that regi...; Chris Williamson | 546 cc961-2 (Link to this contribution)
Make no mistake, Madam Deputy Speaker, the proposals for regional pay represent a naked ideologic...; 546 c962 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Nigel Evans | 546 c962 (Link to this contribution)
Order. To ensure that more Members are able to participate in the debate, the time limit is being...; Jacob Rees-Mogg | 546 cc962-3 (Link to this contribution)
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am sorry that you reduced the time limit just before I got up to ...; Ian Swales | 546 c963 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way and I am glad to be giving him an extra minute to speak...; Jacob Rees-Mogg | 546 c963 (Link to this contribution)
The reason increased employment in the public sector destroys jobs in the private sector is that ...; Andrew Percy | 546 c963 (Link to this contribution)
I usually agree with my hon. Friend, but will he explain why a schoolteacher in Hull or Grimsby, ...; Jacob Rees-Mogg | 546 c963 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend makes a mistake in assuming that the policy will automatically lead to lower pay. ...; Andrew Percy | 546 c963 (Link to this contribution)
There is not a bigger pot of money.; Jacob Rees-Mogg | 546 cc963-4 (Link to this contribution)
Of course there is not a bigger pot of money, but if we allow competition to work, it will increa...; Jacob Rees-Mogg | 546 c964 (Link to this contribution)
I gave a little bit of the evidence earlier, but it is the basic logic of economics that if there...; David Mowat | 546 c964 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend’s analysis would be 100% right if there were proof that higher public sector pay w...; Jim Sheridan | 546 cc964-5 (Link to this contribution)
It was extremely interesting to hear the contributions of the hon. Members for Hexham (Guy Opperm...; Elizabeth Truss | 546 cc965-6 (Link to this contribution)
Our country’s human capital is becoming more vital to our growth and there is an increasing retur...; Aidan Burley | 546 c966 (Link to this contribution)
Does my hon. Friend agree that paying people above what is necessary to retain and recruit them i...; Elizabeth Truss | 546 c966 (Link to this contribution)
I completely agree with my hon. Friend. Opposition Members do not acknowledge that this country’s...; Jim Sheridan | 546 c967 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Lady give way?; Elizabeth Truss | 546 c967 (Link to this contribution)
I want to continue because we have only a limited amount of time in the debate.
The Governm...; Jessica Morden | 546 c967 (Link to this contribution)
In the short time available, I want to talk about regional pay in Wales and my constituency.
<...; Aidan Burley | 546 c967 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Jessica Morden | 546 c967 (Link to this contribution)
We are pushed for time, and if I give way, I will prevent someone else from getting in, so I will...; Lord Wilson of Sedgefield | 546 c967 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Jessica Morden | 546 c968 (Link to this contribution)
I will give way to my hon. Friend, because he will not get a chance to make a speech, whereas the...; Lord Wilson of Sedgefield | 546 c968 (Link to this contribution)
I hope that the hon. Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) understands that Opposition ...; Jessica Morden | 546 c968 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I am sorry he has not had a chance to make his contr...; 546 c969 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Lindsay Hoyle | 546 c969 (Link to this contribution)
Order. I have eight Members to call and about 16 minutes left.
6.24 pm; Stephen Gilbert | 546 cc969-970 (Link to this contribution)
I have struggled with two things during this debate. The first is finding anything that the Minis...; Alison Seabeck | 546 c970 (Link to this contribution)
As with so much of what this Government are doing, the proposal that we are discussing is tainted...; Aidan Burley | 546 c970 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Lady give way?; Alison Seabeck | 546 c970 (Link to this contribution)
No, sit down. You’ve had your opportunity.
There are other historical examples of this poli...; Gemma Doyle | 546 c970 (Link to this contribution)
Will my hon. Friend give way?; Alison Seabeck | 546 c970 (Link to this contribution)
Yes, of course.; 546 c970 (Link to this contribution)
Oh!; Gemma Doyle | 546 c970 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. Some Members have had longer to speak in the deba...; Alison Seabeck | 546 c971 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. She is not going to have an opportunity to make a sp...; Shabana Mahmood | 546 c971 (Link to this contribution)
We have heard a lot about the private sector from Government Members, but does my hon. Friend bel...; Alison Seabeck | 546 c971 (Link to this contribution)
Indeed; I shall touch on that point briefly later.
More than 18,000 people in Plymouth work...; Mel Stride | 546 c971 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Lady give way?; Alison Seabeck | 546 c971 (Link to this contribution)
No, I am afraid that I cannot. Perhaps one of the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues will allow him to i...; Jack Dromey | 546 c971 (Link to this contribution)
Will my hon. Friend give way?; Guto Bebb | 546 cc972-3 (Link to this contribution)
I come to this debate with a question mark over whether I can support this policy. I share my dou...; Alison Seabeck | 546 cc971-2 (Link to this contribution)
I am afraid not; my hon. Friend has only just arrived in the Chamber.
A representative of o...; 546 c973 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Lindsay Hoyle | 546 c973 (Link to this contribution)
Order. I call Phil Wilson, who has one minute.
6.38 pm; Lord Wilson of Sedgefield | 546 cc973-4 (Link to this contribution)
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for that generous offer.
We have heard from Government Member...; Baroness Curran | 546 c974 (Link to this contribution)
This has been a lively and revealing debate, during which Members on both sides of the House have...; Brian H Donohoe | 546 c974 (Link to this contribution)
In an intervention I said that Whitleyism was a good thing. I did not realise that John Whitley w...; Baroness Curran | 546 c974 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my hon. Friend for, as ever, making a stunning intervention.
The debate has another...; Eilidh Whiteford | 546 c975 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Lady give way?; Baroness Curran | 546 c975 (Link to this contribution)
Very briefly.; Eilidh Whiteford | 546 c975 (Link to this contribution)
We heard this afternoon that the idea of regional pay was first mooted by a Labour Chancellor, th...; Baroness Curran | 546 c975 (Link to this contribution)
While we are on the subject of party leaders, perhaps the hon. Lady, who is a member of the SNP, ...; Mike Freer | 546 c975 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Lady give way?; Baroness Curran | 546 c975 (Link to this contribution)
I do not have time.
To be fair, the disagreements over the Government’s approach are not ju...; Mel Stride | 546 c976 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Lady give way?; Baroness Curran | 546 c976 (Link to this contribution)
I do not have time.
As has been pointed out in the debate, the Government have not produced...; Chloe Smith | 546 cc976-7 (Link to this contribution)
This has been an interesting and lively debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Mr B...; Baroness Curran | 546 c977 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Chloe Smith | 546 c977 (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps the hon. Lady is going to tell me that she is not in favour of that.; Baroness Curran | 546 c977 (Link to this contribution)
Can we make it that I do not think the Chancellor was suggesting just that more research should b...; Chloe Smith | 546 cc977-8 (Link to this contribution)
I will say, for the hon. Lady’s benefit, what I have already said: I look forward to the results ...; Jim Sheridan | 546 c978 (Link to this contribution)
May I remind the hon. Lady that the previous Government introduced the national minimum wage? Doe...; Chloe Smith | 546 c978 (Link to this contribution)
I agree with what my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office said earlier, which wa...; Russell Brown | 546 c978 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Chloe Smith | 546 c978 (Link to this contribution)
Does the hon. Gentleman still think that we are all in dreamland when we seek to support the priv...; Russell Brown | 546 c978 (Link to this contribution)
I have no doubts in my mind that some are. The hon. Lady says that the Conservative party support...; Chloe Smith | 546 c978 (Link to this contribution)
If I tried to answer that question, I suspect that I would soon end up outside the scope of the d...; Bill Esterson | 546 c978 (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Chloe Smith | 546 c978 (Link to this contribution)
I will not give way. The hon. Gentleman should rest his foot, as I had to myself several months a...; Baroness Curran | 546 c978 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister explain at what level market-facing pay would be set for a police officer?; Chloe Smith | 546 cc978-9 (Link to this contribution)
The motion rests on a misrepresentation of the notion of regional or local, and the hon. Lady is ...
Subjects: Collective bargaining Pay Public sector Pay settlements Cost of living
Link: View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk

Regional Pay

Secondary information

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