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Address in Reply to Her Majesty's Most Gracious Speech

My Lords, I enjoyed the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Phillips. He repeats a theme that was introduced by the Front Bench spokesman who described what the Lord Chancellor said as a "veritable blizzard of legislation". I listened with care to what the Lord Chancellor said and was proud of the programme which he announced. Let me remind your Lordships of some of the Bills which are forecast. First, identity cards—are we all interested in them? The answer is yes, but whether we get the legislation we want is another matter. On immigration, is there a need for legislation to change the rules? I say that there is and we will have a good debate on them. The word "respect" has a resonance in many areas and it was touched on by the Lord Chancellor. I am certainly interested in that. He also mentioned safety and security issues; violence and firearms; binge drinking; incitement to religious hatred; corporate manslaughter; and fraud and fighting it. I am not an expert on any of those issues, but I am interested in them. I believe that subject to careful consultation the Government are entitled to say to the people of this country and to this House, "These are our views on how to tackle those problems". My noble and learned friend also mentioned sentencing; probation; legal aid and the cost of criminal defence; bringing the legal profession up to date; the compensation culture; and electoral administration. On none of those subjects could I possibly compete with the vast range of specialist speakers to whom I have respectfully listened. I appreciate that and, as always, I shall try to listen to as many of the debates as possible. However, the Government are entitled to take some credit for deciding that these issues need to be tackled in this Session. They may be right or they may be wrong—we will have to see. We then heard about the range of issues which will be covered by reform of the House and its procedures. The noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, is a long-time friend and member of a club, with the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, and I, of former Chief Whips with experience of getting legislation through. We are all figures men. When Michael Cocks in the Whips office used to tell us, "This is the issue of the day", someone might ask, "What about the principle?". He would say, "Principle! Principles in the Whips office? Get out there and get them through the Labour Lobby". As far as he was concerned, it was all to do with numbers. In this place, overwhelmingly it is all to do with numbers. Let me remind your Lordships of the situation which existed when Labour came to office in 1997. In this place, 481 Conservative and 116 Labour Members then took the Whip. Just reflect on that. An incoming party was faced with the fact that it had only 116 Members while its main opposition had 481. The Liberal Democrats had 57 and the Cross Benches had 320. The tautology of those percentages is ludicrous. After all the changes in 1997, 1998 and 1999, in 2001 Labour still had only 193 Members while the Conservatives had 173. But with the addition of the hereditary Peers—the main plank in what is to happen—Labour had 197 Members and the Conservatives 225. Labour had 197 Members of this House out of a total of 679. The situation was beginning to shift. However, can anyone tell me that, if they were in government and inheriting such a situation, they would do nothing—like the main party opposite did nothing for 18 years? I asked the Library to give me some figures, so let me give your Lordships the number of government defeats in this House when Labour was in power between 1974 and 1979 and the Conservatives had those majorities. Of 119 Divisions in 1975, the Government lost 103. In 1976, of 146 Divisions, the Government lost 126. In 1977, out of 45 Divisions, the Government lost 25. In 1978, out of a total of 96 Divisions, the Government lost 78. Members opposite can say, "Well, that's the way it was". Well, that is the way it was, but it is not the way it is going to be. It will be changed. Whether or not there is blood on the carpet, no self-respecting party which has been returned three times with overwhelming majorities would ignore it. There are people who would question a 66 majority; but, my goodness, there are parties all around the House which would think 66, or even 26, was a decent majority. One then moves on. During the years of the Conservative government, when they controlled the Commons as well as this place, one comes across situations such as occurred in 1984: of 237 Divisions, the Government lost only 20. In 1987, there were 80 Divisions and the Government lost three. In 1991, of 104 Divisions, the Government lost 17. That situation changed in 1997, when a Labour government came to power. All of a sudden, this House became more effective in defeating the Government. In 1997–98, of 179 Divisions, the Government were defeated in 39. In the following year, of 99 Divisions, they lost 31. In the year after that, of 192 Divisions, they lost 36. I come to the past four years. In 2001–02, of 172 Divisions, the Government lost 56. In 2002–03, of 226 Divisions, they lost 88. In 2003–04, of 176 Divisions, they lost 64. That is the pattern. I respect the fact that many colleagues on all sides of the House are faced with the prospect of losing their place here because they are hereditary Peers. I genuinely feel for them and their families because they are losing a privilege that, in some cases, they have enjoyed for hundreds of years. My family has had the privilege of containing a Member of the House of Lords for the past 20 years and that is all. If I look in the eye people who have been represented in this place for 300 or 400 years, I say to them, "You can have too much of a good thing". It is not a threat; it is a reality. We have the opportunity to make changes and we should do that. It is our right; it is our opportunity, and I certainly intend to support the Government in doing it in that way. In a third term the Government could be expected to slow down or run out of steam, but I believe that the programme which we have heard described—I have listened to many of the speakers, but not all—tackles real problems. I say to the Lord Chancellor and his ministerial colleagues that I accept the fact that it will take courage, vision and realism. It is a programme not for the past, nor the present; it is one for the future. I commend it to the House.